Author Topic: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu  (Read 591 times)

Offline ozrocker

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WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« on: December 03, 2013, 02:30:20 PM »
Amazing with the technology available now,
how much Historical stuff people are locating.

http://news.msn.com/offbeat/world-war-ii-era-japanese-submarine-found-off-hawaii-coast


                                                                                                                                               :cheers: Oz                                                   
Flying and dying since Tour 29
The world is grown so bad. That wrens make prey where eagles dare not perch.- Shakespeare
 
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Offline bacon8tr

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 03:50:15 PM »
Big enough to hold three bombers with folding wings?  :O

Offline Sabre

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      • Rich Owen
Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 03:59:13 PM »
I saw that article.  Interestingly enough, Clive Cussler wrote a Dirk Pitt novel some years ago, about some terrorists who find the wreck of one of the sunken Japanese I-400 series boats off Hawaii.  I think the novel was called "Black Wind", and the premise was that the sub was carrying biological weapons for an attack on the West Coast; it was sunk before it could carry out the attack, in the last months of the war.  The bombs were to be delivered by the float plane(s) the sub carried in the hanger module on its back.  The bad guys also take over the "Sea Launch" ship and launch barge by force, which the plan to use to deliver the Japanese engineered plague salvaged from the sunken sub.
Sabre
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 05:28:29 PM »
A lot of people are surprised to learn that Japan fielded a large and modern submarine fleet during the war, probably technologically more advanced than the German U-boats of the day.

ack-ack
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Offline Kenne

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 06:24:09 PM »
didnt James Francioso and Frank Sinatra raise a U boot and rob the Queen Mary?
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Offline ozrocker

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 07:17:17 PM »
Found out it's I 400, captured then sunk by US NAVY to prevent study of it by USSR.


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Flying and dying since Tour 29
The world is grown so bad. That wrens make prey where eagles dare not perch.- Shakespeare
 
30% Disabled Vet  US ARMY- 11C2H 2/32 AR. 3rd AD, 3/67AR. 2nd AD, 2/64 AR. 3rd ID, ABGD Command TRADOC, 1/16th INF. 1st ID

Offline Sabre

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 01:21:38 PM »
Also little known, a float plane from an I-400 conducted the only aerial attack against CONUS (i.e. contiguous portion of the United States) when it dropped several incendiary bombs on a forest in Oregon, IIRC.  The thought was to disrupt economic activity in the USA and to cause panic in the general populace.  No conflagration resulted, and the attack was not repeated.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 02:37:14 PM »
Also little known, a float plane from an I-400 conducted the only aerial attack against CONUS (i.e. contiguous portion of the United States) when it dropped several incendiary bombs on a forest in Oregon, IIRC.  The thought was to disrupt economic activity in the USA and to cause panic in the general populace.  No conflagration resulted, and the attack was not repeated.

Japanese also shelled an oil field just outside of Santa Barbara and there's also the fire balloons that they launched and one balloon landed in Oregon, killing members of a church group.  Their deaths are considered the only combat casualties to occur on U.S. soil during World War II.

ack-ack
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 02:57:18 PM »
A lot of people are surprised to learn that Japan fielded a large and modern submarine fleet during the war, probably technologically more advanced than the German U-boats of the day.

ack-ack

Yes and no. They couldnt go as deep as the German ones, couldnt dive as quickly, and werent made as sturdy. A bad combination for a submarine. They did have great torpedos, tho dangerous to handle.

In the end it didnt matter. Luckily for us they didnt know how to use them effectively, or just plain didnt want to. In their medieval warrior culture being a submariner was not considered a prestigious job. They would send them after a cruiser before they would a convoy. The entire war they only sunk 184 merchant ships where'as their Axis partners sank 2840. By the end they were using them as rice carriers to their starving garrisons because nothing else could slip past the allied navies.

All in all a unremarkable performance for a boat heavy navy.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 12:37:12 AM »
Yes and no. They couldnt go as deep as the German ones, couldnt dive as quickly, and werent made as sturdy. A bad combination for a submarine. They did have great torpedos, tho dangerous to handle.

In the end it didnt matter. Luckily for us they didnt know how to use them effectively, or just plain didnt want to. In their medieval warrior culture being a submariner was not considered a prestigious job. They would send them after a cruiser before they would a convoy. The entire war they only sunk 184 merchant ships where'as their Axis partners sank 2840. By the end they were using them as rice carriers to their starving garrisons because nothing else could slip past the allied navies.

All in all a unremarkable performance for a boat heavy navy.
The Japanese Navy didn't target freighters because they were hung up on the Samurai warrior vs warrior mythos.

Probably a good thing for me as my grandfather was a merchant mariner in the Pacific during the war.

You undersell the Japanese technology.  There are reasons we sank them rather than let the Russian's study them.  The Japanese had come up with some innovations and improvements that we didn't want the Russians to have.  Just diving faster and deeper is not the end all and be all of submarine technology.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:38:57 AM by Karnak »
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 04:02:34 AM »
They were relatively fast, tho far slower then destroyers, had range,some had float planes, and were big.

Other then that they were slow to dive, easy to spot on radar, couldnt dive very deep, and cumbersome to maneuver. The type 95 torpedo was enough reason to keep them from the Russians. By 1944 USN ASW had them far outclassed.

They were fascinating, used poorly, and overall, a big meh!

Still I seem to remember a very modern design at the end of the war but only a few were built. Looking back one has to wonder what the heck they were thinking. It wasnt as if they didnt have access to effective submarine tactics thru their alliance with the Germans. That "mythos" is probably to blame.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 02:46:26 PM »
Japanese also shelled an oil field just outside of Santa Barbara and there's also the fire balloons that they launched and one balloon landed in Oregon, killing members of a church group.  Their deaths are considered the only combat casualties to occur on U.S. soil during World War II.

ack-ack

Thanks for pointing those our, Ack-Ack!  I do recall the fire balloons, but didn't remember there being any confirmed successes. I don't recall specifically reading about the shelling of the oil fields, but now that you mention it, it sounds familiar. :salute

Regarding innovations in submarines, Germany definitely went the farthest, though the Japanese had some "firsts".  Specifically, just weeks before the end of the war, Germany managed to deploy four submarines powered by Walther turbines.  The Walther engine was first proposed, and initially began development, back in 1941.  It was a semi-closed cycle engine that used 80%-pure hydrogen-peroxide, combined with diesel fuel, to drive the boat underwater; it still had conventional diesels for surface propulsion, and electric motors for slow and quiet underwater ops, as well.  The hydrogen-peroxide was sprayed into a catalyst chamber, where the oxygen would dis-associate and provide the oxidizer for the combustion of the diesel fuel. Water was injected, creating steam, which drove the turbine.  The byproducts were primarily water and CO2; the CO2 was vented directly to the sea.  The Walther subs could attain sustained underwater speeds of 22-25 knots (as fast as the first nuke boats) for up to several hours.  This meant the could move faster than the ASW forces could hunt them, and have the flexibility to move into attack positions of their choosing against convoys.  Fortunately, the Walther subs attained operational status only in the last few weeks of the war, and none saw action.  Like the Me-262, initial development was slow and halting; Hitler believed the war would be over before they could be brought to fruition.  Also, the initial success of the U-boat campaign against the Allies contributed to the thought that the Walther boats were not going to be needed any time soon. 

Back when I was in the Military, I did a paper about them, as part of an Engineering Communications course.  My proposal was to build these as a complement the nuke fleet, for coastal patrols to guard against enemy boomers, since they could be built much cheaper, and would be operating close to support bases.  I believe they would also be quieter than a nuke boat while operating their Walther turbines, at least at higher speeds, since one of the primary noise sources on a nuke boat are their water pumps.  At the low reactor outputs used for slow speeds, convection circulation is sufficient to circulate the cooling water for the reactor; at high speeds, the pumps come on and add to the over all noise out put.  A Walther sub does not use pumps, so it's engine plant would not be substantially more noisy at high speed than it is at low speed.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:21:12 PM by Sabre »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 06:22:37 PM »
The Walter boats and the outcome of the war
No Walter boats ever saw enemy action and no such boats even entered frontal service as only 3 boats that were intended for combat were launched before the war was ended and none of them (U-1405 - U-1407) had been taken through trials and training. Thus the Walter boats did not have any real effect on the war but they were a very interesting development and according to admiral Dönitz with a little courage and vision they could have been in service 2 years earlier and then they certainly would have had enormous impact on the war.

The fate of the Walter boats
All 10 Walter boats (3 not in commission) and the V-80 prototype (which was never commissioned into the Kriegsmarine officially) were scuttled in May 1945.

http://www.uboat.net/types/walter_hist.htm

Now the Type XX1.....

Offline Karnak

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 07:50:37 PM »
They were relatively fast, tho far slower then destroyers, had range,some had float planes, and were big.

Other then that they were slow to dive, easy to spot on radar, couldnt dive very deep, and cumbersome to maneuver. The type 95 torpedo was enough reason to keep them from the Russians. By 1944 USN ASW had them far outclassed.

They were fascinating, used poorly, and overall, a big meh!

Still I seem to remember a very modern design at the end of the war but only a few were built. Looking back one has to wonder what the heck they were thinking. It wasnt as if they didnt have access to effective submarine tactics thru their alliance with the Germans. That "mythos" is probably to blame.
IIRC, the I-400s were also designed with a hull for optimal submerged performance and handling as opposed to every other submarine, German, American and British included, which had hulls designed for surface performance and handling.  That was, IIRC, what we didn't want the Russians to see.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: WW2 era Japanese Sub found off Oahu
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 08:00:34 PM »
Notice the cross section



and



There was tv show on the design of the sub. history channel ???