Author Topic: Prop wash  (Read 1596 times)

Offline olds442

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Prop wash
« on: December 08, 2013, 11:48:30 AM »
I think their ought to be prop wash as it changed combat sometimes. I remember this one story where a p51 was almost kicked inverted from prop wash at low speed when he was on a 109
only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 12:18:31 PM »
I think their ought to be prop wash as it changed combat sometimes. I remember this one story where a p51 was almost kicked inverted from prop wash at low speed when he was on a 109


Has any online sim ever managed to model such? I couldn't add my +1
without understanding the intricacies of what it would possibly take
to code this monster in. The flight model in this game is pretty darn
good, as is.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 01:24:39 PM »
imagine taking off with ten friends?



semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline olds442

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 01:36:28 PM »
imagine taking off with ten friends?



semp

Timed take offs... Or have it disabled on the ground via arena settings
only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 01:44:34 PM »
Timed take offs... Or have it disabled on the ground via arena settings

You can't piecemeal realism in a game and expect it to work out. Players wanna take off
without having to take a number. Coding prop wash is probably a big enough monster
without having to make it even more specific as to where and when it takes effect.

I respect your desire. I'm just not sure this is an 'easy' wish nor one that takes precedence
over things we know Dale can code without taking more time and effort than the worth in
the end.

Offline earl1937

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 12:02:34 PM »
Timed take offs... Or have it disabled on the ground via arena settings
:airplane: One of the things I have started doing with B-29 mish's is having them look at the "Pick-up mission roster", see where their name is and that is the position that they will take off in. Sometimes I write that down and call out when so and so is supposted to roll. Of course if you do take off inside someone else aircraft, after the gear is up, just a touch of J or L will move you right out of the other aircraft where you can see! LOL
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 10:07:18 AM »
I think their ought to be prop wash as it changed combat sometimes. I remember this one story where a p51 was almost kicked inverted from prop wash at low speed when he was on a 109


Prop wash did not cause the P51 to start to roll inverted.  Prop wash causes a yawing effect at low airspeed.  More likely it was Propeller torque effect which causes a rolling and is corrected with aileron controls
Please consider the following:
Prop wash
A propeller pushes air not just horizontally to the back, but more in a twisting helix around the fuselage (clockwise as seen from the cockpit). As the air whirls around the fuselage it pushes against the left side of the vertical tail (assuming it is located above the propeller's axis), causing the plane to yaw to the left. The prop wash effect is at its greatest when the airflow is flowing more around the fuselage than along it, i.e., at high power and low airspeed, which is the situation when starting the takeoff run.

Propeller torque effect
Torque effect is the influence of engine torque on aircraft movement and control. It is generally exhibited as a left turning tendency in piston single engine propeller driven aircraft.
According to Newton's law, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction," such that the propeller, if turning clockwise (when viewed from the cockpit), imparts a tendency for the aircraft to rotate counterclockwise. Since most single engine aircraft have propellers rotating clockwise, they rotate to the left, pushing the left wing down.
Typically, the pilot is expected to counter this force through the control inputs. To counter the aircraft roll left, the pilot applies right aileron.
It is important to understand that torque is a movement about the roll axis. Aileron controls roll. Prop torque is not countered by moving the rudder or by setting rudder trim. It is countered by moving or trimming the aileron.
This correction induces adverse yaw, which is corrected by moving or trimming the rudder (right rudder).
On aircraft with counter-rotating propellers (propellers that rotate in opposite directions) the torque from the two propellers cancel each other out, so that no compensation is needed.
 
P-Factor
P-factor is the term for asymmetric propeller loading, causes the airplane to yaw to the left when at high angles of attack.
The descending right side of the propeller (as seen from the rear) has a higher angle of attack than the upward-moving blade on the left side and provides more thrust. This occurs only when the propeller is not meeting the oncoming airflow head-on, for example when an aircraft is moving down the runway at a nose-high attitude (i.e. at a high angle of attack), as is the case with tail-draggers. Aircraft with tricycle landing gear maintain a level attitude on the takeoff roll run, so there is little P-factor during takeoff roll until lift off. In all cases, though, the effect is weaker than prop wash.
 
Gyroscopic Precession
This is the tendency of a spinning object to precess or move about its axis when disturbed by a force. The engine and propeller act as a big gyroscope. However, gyroscopic precession is likely to be minimal in a typical aircraft.
Gyroscopic precession is frequently confused with p-factor.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 10:15:04 AM »
You can't piecemeal realism in a game and expect it to work out.

And yet we have Friendly Collisions set to "Off."
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 10:37:25 AM »
And yet we have Friendly Collisions set to "Off."
Excellent point!



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Offline Puma44

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 10:42:34 AM »
I think their ought to be prop wash as it changed combat sometimes. I remember this one story where a p51 was almost kicked inverted from prop wash at low speed when he was on a 109

Prop wash didn't change combat.  It was and is an integral part of flying that pilots have to be cognizant of and deal with, if encountered.  Most likely, the pilot stalled the Mustang and all the factors Traveler mentions below aided in the "snap", probably to the left.  Flying through prop wash won't necessarily cause a roll to the inverted.    :salute
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 10:46:23 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline FLS

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 11:08:14 AM »
I believe Olds is referring to a P-51 following a 109 that hit the 109's wake turbulence.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 11:14:16 AM »
You can't piecemeal realism in a game and expect it to work out.

And yet we have Friendly Collisions set to "Off."

That's not 'piecemeal' as much as a coded option that would
have have had negative consequence (due to the nature of its
limitations) had it been coded universally without the ability to
make it only active against opponents.

What I was responding to was a follow-up to a request to code
propwash into the game, which is probably a chore and a half in
itself, with an additional suggestion that it be coded at a certain
altitude or location. I don't think that even without making it more
complicated it would add enough to the game to warrant such effort.

My opinion, of course.

I get caught in the occasional inverted spins and stalls enough
as it is, anyway.  (Bearing in mind the current debate about
whether propwash is even that big a factor.) ;)

Offline Traveler

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 12:57:52 PM »
I believe Olds is referring to a P-51 following a 109 that hit the 109's wake turbulence.
P51D was about 6 tons at take off, the 109 was around 3 tons, I doubt that wake turbulence was the issue.   The same reason there is no "caution wake turbulence" warning  for 747's departing after a 737.   Also Wake turbulence is at it's greatest when the aircraft generating it is in a slow dirty configuration, that Landing gear down, flaps and slow for landing or takeoff.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 01:16:29 PM »
P51D was about 6 tons at take off, the 109 was around 3 tons, I doubt that wake turbulence was the issue.   The same reason there is no "caution wake turbulence" warning  for 747's departing after a 737.   Also Wake turbulence is at it's greatest when the aircraft generating it is in a slow dirty configuration, that Landing gear down, flaps and slow for landing or takeoff.


I believe that the wake could cause you to roll. I believe the pilot who reported it may have known what actually happened. 

I don't think we'll see it modeled for technical reasons but it would be cool.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Prop wash
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 01:27:33 PM »
I believe that the wake could cause you to roll. I believe the pilot who reported it may have known what actually happened. 

I don't think we'll see it modeled for technical reasons but it would be cool.

True, wake turbulence can cause some rolling motion.  Most times it is a manageable event countered with proper control input. Been there, done that.  The "kick to inverted" is more characteristic of an accelerated stall in the Mustang.  Been there, done that too.



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