Author Topic: bf.109-f4 vs f4u  (Read 4321 times)

Offline -error

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bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« on: December 10, 2013, 09:55:56 AM »
Hello.
Recently I had several encouters of f4u while riding in bf.109-f4. And you know what? I was always being killed in stallfight @ speeds about 100-150 mph. How that 6 tonnes beast is able to keep up with light bf.109 is unbeknownst to me :-)
How should I fight 'em?
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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 10:21:49 AM »
I well flown Corsair can be a hand full, for sure.

In a 109F, I would fly defensively at first.  Try to keep the fight going "up hill".  Force him to fly nose up as much as possible.  Pull only hard enough to stay out of his guns.  Force him to scrub his own energy trying to get shots on you.

Use your superior climb rate and superior acceleration to gain an e-state advantage.  Then use it.

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Offline Scca

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 01:24:57 PM »
Hello.
Recently I had several encouters of f4u while riding in bf.109-f4. And you know what? I was always being killed in stallfight @ speeds about 100-150 mph. How that 6 tonnes beast is able to keep up with light bf.109 is unbeknownst to me :-)
How should I fight 'em?
The answer to the bolded part is "uber flapn's".  According to what I just googled, the F4u stall speed at full flaps is about the same as the 109F, maybe a bit slower.  Add that large rudder into the mix and when it gets slow, as was said, you have to work the fight UP.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 01:35:59 PM »
According to Mosq's Sustained Turn Lust 12-2012 rev3:
(at 25% fuel)

No Flaps:
Bf 109F  radius 594ft, turn rate 20.4 DPS
F4U-1a  radius 710ft, turn rate 18.1 DPS

Full Flaps
Bf 109F radius 449ft, turn rate 20.8 DPS
F4U-1a radius 427ft, turn rate 19.3 DPS


So don't play the flappin' game with he F4U. When the Corsair drops the wonderflaps, dont follow him there but (as already pointed out) point nose up. Let him bleed his E and keep yours. Use your climbing power:


« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 01:40:40 PM by Lusche »
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Offline Muzzy

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 02:47:13 PM »
Anyone know where we can see more of Mosq's turn stats? Is there a website?


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Offline Triton28

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 03:51:22 PM »
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
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Offline Big Rat

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 06:31:00 PM »
Actually the 109F, even in a stall fight with an F4U really isn't at much of a disadvantage.  I'm very good in both aircraft.  Slow speeds the F4U has the advanatage in a rolling scissors (darn thing was built for a rolling scissors).  It's ability to bleed speed, and quick roll rate with it's huge rudder to assist, make it deadly in this realm.  The 109F however will out flat turn it, it's turn radius is slightly bigger but it's turn rate is faster with both at WEP and full flaps.  I'm not afraid to take an F4 slow against a 1a, even against some of my best VF-17 squaddies.  Now saying that, what's the best way to deal with an F4U with a 109F.  Stall fighting on the deck isn't the best idea, albeit you still are in the game by far.  In most situations the F4U will come into a fight with more smash then a 109F, so the trick is to get it to commit to a turn fight, but don't fall into a rolling scissors trap by the F4U.  If you can get the F4U to start using it's flaps and burning E. You can then start using your superior accelleration to build up enough speed to start working the verticle against him.  F4U is not very good at acceleration so you use that against it.  Once above it you can start using your superior turn rate to get your angle, and turn the fight into your B&Z fight.  I could probably demonstrate this easily enough during one of my training sessions, if you would like to ride along on a Tuesday or Wednesday night (9central).  I already got a rider for tonight though.

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Offline mtnman

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 08:02:31 PM »
Actually the 109F, even in a stall fight with an F4U really isn't at much of a disadvantage.  I'm very good in both aircraft.  Slow speeds the F4U has the advanatage in a rolling scissors (darn thing was built for a rolling scissors).  It's ability to bleed speed, and quick roll rate with it's huge rudder to assist, make it deadly in this realm.  The 109F however will out flat turn it, it's turn radius is slightly bigger but it's turn rate is faster with both at WEP and full flaps.  I'm not afraid to take an F4 slow against a 1a, even against some of my best VF-17 squaddies.  Now saying that, what's the best way to deal with an F4U with a 109F.  Stall fighting on the deck isn't the best idea, albeit you still are in the game by far.  In most situations the F4U will come into a fight with more smash then a 109F, so the trick is to get it to commit to a turn fight, but don't fall into a rolling scissors trap by the F4U.  If you can get the F4U to start using it's flaps and burning E. You can then start using your superior accelleration to build up enough speed to start working the verticle against him.  F4U is not very good at acceleration so you use that against it.  Once above it you can start using your superior turn rate to get your angle, and turn the fight into your B&Z fight.  I could probably demonstrate this easily enough during one of my training sessions, if you would like to ride along on a Tuesday or Wednesday night (9central).  I already got a rider for tonight though.

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So true...

When I was flying regularly, I often got complaints from 109 pilots that were frustrated that I was able to fairly easily out-fly them in the turn fight.  

In several cases though, those sticks took me up on an invite to the TA where I could show them the tactics BR describes above.  Generally within 30 minutes or so I could have them using the 109 effectively enough that I COULD NOT kill them, and they could make attack after attack on me with impunity.  Now, whether they could actually seal the deal and hit me was a different question, but the fact is they could attack me and keep me pressured to the point where I could do nothing but dodge (and attempt to sucker them into slowing for a shot, where I could steal the advantage back).

If you're flying the 109, and having troubles with the F4U's just change your tactics up a bit (as BR described).

The 109 vs F4U tactic described is very similar to the tactics I use in the F4U vs A6M (but on a much smaller, "tighter" scale).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 08:11:53 PM by mtnman »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 10:30:16 PM »
F4U best dogfighter in the game IMO...great handles at most speed...only disadvantage is climb rate.
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Offline -error

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 10:20:56 AM »
Thanks for opinions everybody.

Now I see that my mistake is that I went stallfighting f4u. But I was afraid of his superior speed and that's why it is ended in stallfight. So, plain'ol'good left rising spiral will do the trick?

But I do not see yet how to turn slow and tight turning into BnZ.
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Offline FLS

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 10:45:28 AM »
Thanks for opinions everybody.

Now I see that my mistake is that I went stallfighting f4u. But I was afraid of his superior speed and that's why it is ended in stallfight. So, plain'ol'good left rising spiral will do the trick?

But I do not see yet how to turn slow and tight turning into BnZ.

Hard to say what you did wrong without film. The 109 only has a small advantage in climb and acceleration. You still need to avoid getting shot as you work to get an energy advantage or shot position. Check your films and see if you're giving the F4U any free shots.

The size and weight of an aircraft are not performance factors, as long as the engine provides the required thrust. A bigger aircraft is an easier target but there's no reason it won't fly as well as a small aircraft. The F6F, F4U, and P-47 are all huge fighters that fly very well.

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 11:03:52 AM »
Sometimes it may be necessary to fly through his gunsight.  Be sure that for the instant that you are under his guns, you roll to present him only a profile, not your entire wing and horizontal stab.  A 109 is a pretty small target when you only show him your side.

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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 02:02:00 PM »
Hard to say what you did wrong without film. The 109 only has a small advantage in climb and acceleration. You still need to avoid getting shot as you work to get an energy advantage or shot position. Check your films and see if you're giving the F4U any free shots.

The size and weight of an aircraft are not performance factors, as long as the engine provides the required thrust. A bigger aircraft is an easier target but there's no reason it won't fly as well as a small aircraft. The F6F, F4U, and P-47 are all huge fighters that fly very well.

The Bf 109F-4 actually has a pretty large advantage in climb over the F4U-1A. And as per HiTech, this indicates that the Bf 109F-4 also has a large advantage in acceleration. Its also important to remember that the Bf 109 has nearly double the WEP duration of the F4U.

Climbing left-hand turn should work quite nicely against an F4U-1
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Offline Gman

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 02:14:49 PM »
PfD's point about the small profile is a very important technique all new players should be aware of, and taught by their trainers/squadmates.  It's probably the most important thing to be aware of when on the defense in any plane - if it looks like your opponent is going to get a shot at you from some angle that isn't behind you, roll and put your wing right on him, or as close as possible, and continue putting G's on your plane to make your plane move through HIS site at a trajectory that is hard to hit.  It isn't always easy to do depending on the situation, especially in a 2 or 3 vs you fight, but once you get the hang of it, it'll increase your survival by a huge margin.

Also, telling new players to use the climb power of the 109 is a bit vague IMO.  Just putting the nose up and hitting WEP can make you an even easier target in may situations, it's critical to know when and where you can use your climb advantage vs another plane, and it's very dependent on your opponents current E state, direction of flight compared to yours, and of course his distance.  An F4U sweeping in behind you when your nose is level, and at d500 or d700 or so, putting your nose up and hitting wep to climb will make you a very, very easy target, so just be aware of when you can and cannot get away with spiral climbing on your opponent.  You almost have to wait until he is very low on energy or at a much lower E state than you, that or you need distance separation, before initiating a climb on him. That IMO is the real trick to using E fighting planes like the 109, knowing when you can actually use it against an opponent, and it will only come through practice, and a lot of failure, unless you get a really good trainer who puts you through some pretty good 1v1 examples.  Watching your opponent, particularly the distance marker, and the + or - to tell if you're gaining E or losing E compared to him, will begin to tell you what his energy state is at.  When you see it settled, or a + when he's behind your 3 to 9 line, you know you have an advantage - this is a good time to try and put your nose up with Wep on and try to force him into following you, something he can't match from the stats of the planes in this example.  If you're patient, and keep the pressure on him this way, he'll be forced to either turn away, or will stall out trying to match you, or will simply start to fall further behind you as you can height and E on him, giving you the chance to turn things around.

There are some great 109 guys who can help you begin to figure it out, guys far better than I am at teaching and doing this, any of the Muppet or other L/W 109 squads have guys that will take you into the TA or DA and in even 30 mins, you can probably double your skills from getting some pointers and example fights.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 02:19:59 PM by Gman »

Offline Big Rat

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Re: bf.109-f4 vs f4u
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2013, 05:45:20 PM »
error,

I'l have a rider spot open with me tonight if you wish to ride along while I train.  It almost always makes more sense to see it in person then try to picture it in your mind. 

I'll be in the TA at 9 central.

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