biggest changes to AH FM/gunnery modeling since beta opinions...

[Citabria]

the whos here since beta thread got me thinking about the biggest changes to AH FM/gunnery modeling since beta...

i think I'd say...

1. increased E retention change (original planes bled E very fast. this was changed years ago to more accurately model E retention rates I think. turn fighters benefited greatly from this change as they could fight longer and maneuver better vs bnzers)

2. gunnery in general... dispersion hit modeling lethality changes. (back in the day you could nail somebody at 1000 yards and down them with a few 50 cal. it is now much harder to land hits at range and takes more hits to do damage)

[Karnak]

2. gunnery in general... dispersion hit modeling lethality changes. (back in the day you could nail somebody at 1000 yards and down them with a few 50 cal. it is now much harder to land hits at range and takes more hits to do damage)

This was one of the biggest improvements in AH v2.00.  In earlier versions aircraft had a hit box shaped basically like the aircraft, but cruder, and that resulted in wings and tails hit detection areas being noticeably thicker than the graphic for the wing or tail and that enabled those long range shots.  v2.00 introduced hit boxes that were the exact same polygon as the visible 3D model.

I concur with your rankings though.  The change to E retention first, hit detection second and I'll nominate the changes to the flap modeling as third, the one where the Bf109s went from bad flaps to good flaps.

[Soulyss]

I recall the FM overhaul very well, there was the usual mashing of teeth by some members of the community but I felt like overall it was a big improvement in game play, and opened a lot more possibilities.

[kvuo75]

i remember lobbying hitech and pyro directly on usenet (comp.games.ibm.flight-sim?) to let 50 cal bullets get out to 1000 yds or more in 1995, during confirmed kill beta.

I think at the time you had to be within 500 yds to even get hits. 

[-aper-]

1. increased E retention change (original planes bled E very fast. this was changed years ago to more accurately model E retention rates I think. turn fighters benefited greatly from this change as they could fight longer and maneuver better vs bnzers)

It brought lots of players from WarBirds into AH straight away. From this point of view it was good.
It is still not clear how did it make the game more realistic?
Just think about two planes: Spit1 and Hurri1. Both are good TnB planes. Spit1 is better in speed, climb acceleration and in real life was considered to be a better plane.
Now, if you make experiment and fly one month in Spit1 and another month in Hurri1 you'll get approx twice as better score in Hurri1 simply because Hurri1 TnBs better... Does it feel right ?

[caldera]

Just think about two planes: Spit1 and Hurri1. Both are good TnB planes. Spit1 is better in speed, climb acceleration and in real life was considered to be a better plane.
Now, if you make experiment and fly one month in Spit1 and another month in Hurri1 you'll get approx twice as better score in Hurri1 simply because Hurri1 TnBs better... Does it feel right ?

<Hijack>

In LW, the Spit I gives me more success than the Hurri I does.

All-Time K/D in Spit I is .44 better than in the Hurri I

Anecdotal evidence, but I think you are undervaluing speed, climb and acceleration vs. TnB  in the MA environment.

[Karnak]

It brought lots of players from WarBirds into AH straight away. From this point of view it was good.
It is still not clear how did it make the game more realistic?
Just think about two planes: Spit1 and Hurri1. Both are good TnB planes. Spit1 is better in speed, climb acceleration and in real life was considered to be a better plane.
Now, if you make experiment and fly one month in Spit1 and another month in Hurri1 you'll get approx twice as better score in Hurri1 simply because Hurri1 TnBs better... Does it feel right ?

There are other factors than turning ability going on there.

[-aper-]

<Hijack>

In LW, the Spit I gives me more success than the Hurri I does.

All-Time K/D in Spit I is .44 better than in the Hurri I

Anecdotal evidence, but I think you are undervaluing speed, climb and acceleration vs. TnB  in the MA environment.

Spit1 and Hurri1 are on the same scale in LW they both do not have a great armament and they both (their icons "SPIT","HURRI") do not attract abnormal amount of enemies to you.  Shots from long distance and deflection shots are not effective. To get a fair kill you need to settle down well on enemy and place a good burst from 150 yards - job done. Now, the difference is that it takes less time to do it in Hurri and it means that in Spit you are much longer under danger to be picked by another plane while you getting the gun solution on enemy. Speed, climb and acceleration are not important at all.

I know it is simplified explanation and "there are other factors" but they are not that critical.

[Karnak]

I know it is simplified explanation and "there are other factors" but they are not that critical.

I disagree.  As modeled in AH the Spitfire is very fragile while the Hurricane is quite tough, moreso than I think is justified.  That makes the Hurri I's survivability significantly higher than the Spitfire I.

Both aircraft handily out turn all aircraft they are likely to meet in the LWMA other than the A6M5.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Speed, climb and acceleration are not important at all.

In MA you mean because they're completely outclassed by late war birds.

[Gman]

The gunnery model really took a toll on my shooting when it first changed.  I was a very good shot in most situations, which accounted for my stats, as I was and still am no wizard when it comes to advanced ACM, but good SA and good accuracy in the MA will carry you a long ways.  What I found changed the most was long distance chase shots.  Many times with the earlier gunnery model, at d800 or even d1000, I recall constantly blasting people from the sky at that range with ease.  Now, while it can be done, it takes a lot more ammo, patience, and an opponent that is somewhat asleep at the wheel.  Prior to the change, once you knew where to hold your sight at certain ranges, it was easy to use 20mm or even 50's to hit guys in those long range tail chase shots.  Much easier than it is now, which is likely a lot closer to reality.  

So, we got an "easier" flight model, but a harder gunnery model, at least that's my opinion compared to the original game.  I have no complaints either way.

[Debrody]

Anecdotal evidence, but I think you are undervaluing speed, climb and acceleration vs. TnB  in the MA environment.

They can easily outturn anything what comes across, it doesnt really matter against any late war ride, but the spit 1 is a lot faster (or a lot less slooooooooow), this might cause the difference.

Or, check the stats of the winner of the october tour. All he was flying is a very fast brick. He must be a pick tard 

[Max]

2. gunnery in general... dispersion hit modeling lethality changes. (back in the day you could nail somebody at 1000 yards and down them with a few 50 cal. it is now much harder to land hits at range and takes more hits to do damage)

Agree 100% and I swear, the FM2 50's were more lethal than other American iron, IMHO

[Estes]

Biggest ones I can remember, is they changed the spit 5 flight model as the old flew like a UFO. And the day they quit showing kill messages in the text buffer every time was an improvement as you didn't have so many things going on in the text buffer. The introduction of in-game VOX was awesome, no longer had to use Roger Wilco. I've only seen in-game vox in a few games and it seems like it's always awful.

[-aper-]

I disagree.  As modeled in AH the Spitfire is very fragile while the Hurricane is quite tough, moreso than I think is justified.  That makes the Hurri I's survivability significantly higher than the Spitfire I.

So, you see  that something is not correct.  Take a closer look at Hurricane. In real life this plane was diving very poor due to big air drag. In AH it dives pretty well. Is something wrong with air drag/E-burning calculations?

If you've read the books written by russian pilots  who were unlucky enough to fly Hurricanes (all rearmed with cannons btw)  in 1942 and early 1943 they all were dreaming about getting Yak-7 or P-39 instead.
Now check the stats of HurriIIC vs Yak7 or P39s - you can see straight away Hurri IIC owns Yak7B, P39D and P39Q all together(!) in total number of kills and much more effective in K/D . Does it sound right ?