ILS questions

[LCADolby]

I have not heard of this accident, was it a serious CFIT?

[Puma44]

I have not heard of this accident, was it a serious CFIT?

Google it.  There are videos, etc to show the event.  Serious?   Yeah, pretty much.

[LCADolby]

Google it.  There are videos, etc to show the event.  Serious?   Yeah, pretty much.

Ah, I have seen it, I recognise Captain Sum Ting Wong from that TV hoax... Sorry don't mind me.

[Puma44]

Yeah, he's the guy. 

[earl1937]

Horseshit. Literally tens of thousands, if not far more, airline pilots have qualified in Level D simulators and gone directly to flying the line. Simulators offer the most effective AND cost effective training. Your mistakes don't kill you and you can train to proficiency, repeating maneuvers as many times as is necessary.

How many other Level D simulator trained airline pilots crashed at SFO on a visual approach? I don't know of any others, do you? I'm thinking the answer is none.

Asiana 214 was cleared for a simple visual approach. If you can't land on an 11,000 foot long runway in VFR conditions, you shouldn't pretend to be a pilot.

No doubt the flight sim's have saved the airlines millions of dollars in pilot training but in my view the flight sim should be used for annual checks working on emergency procedures and for generally impressing the chief pilot or his designate that the trainee knows what he is supposed to do in certain situations. BUT that is not and will never be a flight sim which reinforces your decision making like training in the real thing!

[Golfer]

No doubt the flight sim's have saved the airlines millions of dollars in pilot training but in my view the flight sim should be used for annual checks working on emergency procedures and for generally impressing the chief pilot or his designate that the trainee knows what he is supposed to do in certain situations. BUT that is not and will never be a flight sim which reinforces your decision making like training in the real thing!

They were training in the real thing. He was still on IOE.

[earl1937]

They were training in the real thing. He was still on IOE.

Sorry Charlie FAR 121 prohibits pilot training with fare paying customers on board! They are allowed to line check as I think it is called during a normal trip but no flight training!
Training is a student and instructor, at what ever level you wish to examine is pushing and poking the aircraft in all area's of the aircraft's flight envelope with the instructor certifying the trainee's competence in all area's of flight. An designated examiner sitting in the right seat observing what the PIC is doing is not flight training.
Call me "old fashion" but a pilot should know everything about his aircraft before allowing him to haul passengers for hire. He should be able during an oral exam explain every system in the a/c which can be controlled by him or other crew members. Example, today's airline pilots sit in front of a "glass" cockpit screen which if something goes wrong, is supposed to tell him what is wrong and suggest corrective action.
How about the DC9 captain who wouldn't go to full power taking off from Washington National, (Now Ronald Reagan), who's inlet temp gauges had froze up due to lack of turning them on and he struck a bridge and killed a bunch of people. He had several clues to alert him that things were going down hill fast and all he had to do was shove both thrust levers all the way forward and that accident would not have happened. But, because he was able to answer all the text book answers, he was certified to fly the 9 in cold weather operations. That goes right back to the point I have been making, had an instructor somewhere in his training, pulled the breaker for one or both ITP's, he would have that experience to fall back on and probably would have recognized what was happening and took corrective actions.
though, hands on training, in the real thing cannot and will not ever be replaced by sim's as the best method to train pilots sir!

[Toad]

Golfer, we probably better just drop it. The hip boots are about to be topped here. Some things you can't fix and I believe this is one of them.

[Oldman731]

Golfer, we probably better just drop it. The hip boots are about to be topped here. Some things you can't fix and I believe this is one of them.

There's no question in my mind that you approach things differently in a simulator - or if you have an instructor sitting beside you - than if you're by yourself in the real thing.  The first two instances permit you to relax, because you know that nothing serious will happen (sim) or someone else is there to take over, if things go wrong.  This isn't to disparage simulator training, it's necessary and useful, but it also doesn't impart the same lessons as does real-world training.

- oldman

[Puma44]

They were training in the real thing. He was still on IOE.

IOE (Initial Operating Experience), a bit of a stretch calling it training.  All of a new pilot's training is complete by the time IOE is conducted.  As most pilots will hopefully admit, every flight is a learning experience (or training for future events) and if something new isn't learned every time, they most likely missed the one thing that could have bit them in the backside.

[Golfer]

It's not a stretch at all. There's a reason at the companies I've worked for the post flight reports during IOE go in your training folder.

[Valkyrie]

Air Florida 90 was the 737 you are talking about and he used unsound judgment at a number of points including using reverse thrust at the Gate to get the plane moving backwards when it was otherwise frozen in place with the tug. Reverse thrust sending ice and snow into the engine. Also if memory serves they were out beyond their deice time.

[earl1937]

Air Florida 90 was the 737 you are talking about and he used unsound judgment at a number of points including using reverse thrust at the Gate to get the plane moving backwards when it was otherwise frozen in place with the tug. Reverse thrust sending ice and snow into the engine. Also if memory serves they were out beyond their deice time.

You are correct and it points out what I have been saying about training! Flight sim's certainly have their place in pilot training, I just happen to one of many who think we put to much trust in a machine to train a person to fly correctly. I agree that we have to reach a balance between actually flying the aircraft and a flight sim, but I think money gets in the way and so sometimes money causes corner cutting and sometimes results in terrible crashes. While you are correct about the blow back from engine reverse, the main problem is expressed in the following:Air Florida Flight 90 was a U.S. domestic passenger flight that originated at Washington National Airport in Arlington County, Virginia, and was scheduled to terminate at Fort Lauderdale – Hollywood International Airport in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, with a stopover at Tampa International Airport in Tampa, Florida. On January 13, 1982, the Boeing 737-200 registered as N62AF, previously registered with United Airlines as N9050U, crashed into the 14th Street Bridge over the Potomac River.

The aircraft struck the 14th Street Bridge, which carries Interstate 395 between Washington, D.C. and Arlington County. It crushed seven occupied vehicles on the bridge and destroyed 97 feet (30 m) of guard rail before it plunged through the ice into the Potomac River. The crash occurred less than two miles (3 km) from the White House and within view of both the Jefferson Memorial and The Pentagon. The aircraft was carrying 74 passengers and five crewmembers. Four passengers and one flight attendant survived the crash. Four motorists from the bridge were killed. The survivors were rescued from the icy river by civilians and professionals.

President Ronald Reagan commended these acts during his State of the Union speech a few days later. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that the cause of the accident was pilot error. The pilots failed to switch on the engines' internal ice protection systems, used reverse thrust in a snowstorm prior to takeoff, and failed to abort the takeoff even after detecting a power problem while

[Toad]

I'd be interested in reading your opinion on how training in the aircraft versus the simulator could have avoided the palm 90 accident   You have read the cvr transcript I assume

[earl1937]

I'd be interested in reading your opinion on how training in the aircraft versus the simulator could have avoided the palm 90 accident   You have read the cvr transcript I assume

Yes and a simple answer to your question: READ the DAMN check list! The first officer did, but for what ever reason, the a/c didn't turn on the on board engine deice function. Was it an over sight, or did he think it wasn't necessary. Either way, he took about 27% of engine power available to him away! I don't really know why he didn't. I had discussed this accident many times in the past because of my natural curiosity of what went wrong, in hopes that someday I didn't make the same mistaken. The consensus of most experienced line pilots all said the same thing: the OAT dictated where or not to turn on the engine anti ice systems, when on the ground to 35F. If you read the accident report, did you notice the difference in #1 and #2 EPR? That should have given him a clue that something wasn't right and he should have aborted right then!
But, thanks for your comment, that is one accident which could have been prevented in my view, just by paying attention to details!