Author Topic: Suggestion for icons and ranging  (Read 593 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« on: January 28, 2001, 04:24:00 PM »
Hi

The more I think about it, 90% of the issues we have in here with super  buff guns, chog hispanos, extrmemly accurate long range hi angle shooting and so on are caused much more by the super accurate ranger than anything else. Here is what I suggest:

Get rid of all ranging info from about 1.0k down to about 400yards, at which time the range can be given as as is now. This way we keep the icons and long ranging (prolly neccesary to due to low monitor res.) but we bring gunnery to a more realistic WW2 standard.

What do you guys think?

thanks GRUNHERZ

Offline DB603

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2001, 04:49:00 PM »
S!

 That turbolaser-Hispano is a pain in the butt combined with the C-Hog that many seem to fly.We tested with Lentolaivue 34 to fly with friendly icons only.That was some challenge and the shooting and spotting became much harder(fun too!).Now U can't spot a lo flying Ju88 against the sea so easily since no "come-and-shoot-me"-icon is visible,especially during adverse light conditions.I would give a vote to Grunherz.

Offline Toad

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2001, 05:00:00 PM »
You don't need any icons other than a simple "Friend or Foe" indicator (IMHO) at ranges where current technology is sufficient to provide the visual cues. You certainly don't need range info inside normal shooting distances. (Anywhere from 1k on in to 0, depending on your particular beliefs.   )

You DO need some icon info outside this range to compensate for the lack of visual cues that would normally be present.

This topic has been beaten to death (with not much overall agreement) in various threads and some fine ideas put forth.

I'll drop out here, just saying that we DON'T need anything but IFF at "normal" shooting ranges where current technology is sufficient.
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Offline SOB

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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2001, 05:06:00 PM »
So, you'd have normal icons from 6k out like you do now, then it'd switch to just friend or foe icon at 1k with no plane id or range?

I kind of like this idea.  


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eskimo

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2001, 05:28:00 PM »
If buff gunners just had IFF, the would still clobber you/I/we.

Buff gunners in AH have had a lot more virtual experience than thier real-life counterparts ever did.  This accounts for alot IMO.

eskimo

Offline StSanta

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2001, 07:41:00 PM »
Givingrange indications in 200 yard icnrements would be nice - also would remove the "ah I am moving away with 1 feet a minute, I am safe" escape.



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Offline eagl

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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2001, 10:21:00 PM »
Even today, accurate range information is absolutely critical to precise weapon employment, whether it's a cannon or a bomb.  The 2 places in AH where we are given absolutely perfect range information is in icon range and in the bomb sights.  This was, and still is, information that makes the difference between an ace and a kill, a skilled bombadier who hits or a wannabe who misses.

Unfortunately, until we get better visual setups for our home computers, we're limited to peering at relatively small monitors and trying to artificially discern information that our brains can automatically gather from the real world.  Icon ranges are the "next best thing" to the human eyes and a full 360 degree field of view to look at. As for the bombing system...

Begin editorial

It's there because many players wouldn't bomb in the game if it was even marginally realistic.  Heck, we don't even have to dial in the target elevation    Talk about lazy man's bombing LOL.  There's no skill or pre-planning required unless you try to line up the perfect approach angle to get 5 objects instead of 4 in each pass, and that only requires downloading the maps and glancing at them before making the final bomb run.  Real life bombing is HARD, just as hard as dogfighting plus it requires planning before the flight and some degree of intuition as to how to make uncertanties balance each other out.  Things like if you don't know the exact winds, just line up with a head or tail wind instead of a crosswind, and you'll get better accuracy out of a string of bombs.  Or instead of bombing a runway straight down the runway heading, cut it at an angle to increase the chance of knocking it out of service.  Real bombing is an art form that is almost entirely absent in AH, but that's by design as (I assume) a great number of players wouldn't bother to learn how to do it properly with obviously discouraging results.

End editorial, return to your regularly scheduled program.


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Offline Tac

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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2001, 10:31:00 PM »
I liked SWOTL's norden sight. Aim, click and the countdown began. Right now you can virtually drop one bomb, bank the plane hard, steady it, aim, drop another one, and if you manage to get your plane real slow, you can do it a for a 3rd time. I think its harder to guide a bomb in Jane's F-15 Eagle game than to aim & drop in AH!


AKSeaWulfe

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2001, 10:31:00 PM »
B17II has a good representation of the Norden bombsight. You need to input drift, elevation(the distance between your altitude and the height of the target above sea level), and set the intervelometer(spelling?) for the delay between bombs. Then you need to aim the bombsight, lock it, unlock it and aim again. This way you get the target locked into the norden at the proper drift and speed. You also need to set the rate at which the norden tracks the bombsight(so it doesn't drop too soon or too late).
The bomb run in all takes roughly 10-15 minutes depending where you start. This is pretty realistic and requires constant input.

Unfortunately the problem is guys like to do solo bomb runs in AH and if they couldn't, they probably wouldn't bother. So setting up the bombsight for a realistic/accurate drop requires you to be at the bombardier's station all of the time, a fighter could easily jump you while you are sitting there(of course this would give more reason to bring along a gunner or have an escort or two). But guys usually don't go for that, probably why it's set at an "easy mode" for bombing.

Just my thoughts on the subjects.
-SW

Offline Jekyll

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2001, 03:38:00 AM »
 
Quote
Buff gunners in AH have had a lot more virtual experience than thier real-life counterparts ever did. This accounts for alot IMO.

Therefore, by this reasoning, the pilots with the most flight hours in WW2 would have been the most accurate shooters, right?

Sorry, it just don't work that way.  Even in this virtual environment I've seen guys who've flown online for 5 years who still cannot hit the broad side of a barn, whilst a rank newbie can be a virtual 'Annie Oakley' of the skies.

Some people have got the 'eye', some haven't.

I haven't  

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Offline Purzel

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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2001, 06:01:00 AM »
Hmm, Jekyl, youre right, some have it, some dont. I surely dont have it   .

Well, to get back to the original question, concerning the laser-range-finders: What do you think about some kind of bar instead of numbers? You would have a much more realistic representation of what the "feeling" of the range would be I think. If you'd have a bar from D .5 downwards you would always have to estimate, and above D .5 only whole tenths woudl be used.



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Offline Jekyll

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2001, 03:20:00 AM »
I agree that the limitations of our monitors require range info AT SOME STAGE of the engagement.

So, why not ....

D6-D2 ... aircraft type and range .. e.g. Spit 3200

At long range you'd know roughly what type of aircraft you were engaging, and their approximate range to you.

D2-D0.5 ... aircraft subtype only .. e.g. SpitIX

At intermediate range you'd be able to identify differences between types .. does that P47 have a dorsel fillet or not?

D0.5-D0.0 .. opponent only .. e.g. Mitsu

At close range you'd be able to take a good look at your opponent's aircraft .. see the kill markings and unit identifiers on the fuselage.  You'd KNOW who you were up against from intelligence reports.

Not that nowhere in this system would icons disappear completely.  You would still have that icon above (or below) your opponent to help with your SA.  However, long-range spray and pray would be less successful since you would probably need to close to shorter range to fire successfully.

Closing to shorter range opens up all sorts of ACM designed to force the overshoot.  No longer can your cannon-equipped opponent sit comfortably 600yds behind you and 'shotgun' you to death.  Dump range info inside 2000 yds and ACM becomes a contest of skill - not simply gunnery.

Why not incorporate the same into AH?

Pepino

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2001, 05:36:00 AM »
I think the no icon arena could be solved. I take for granted that, at least in the immediate future, we will not see an iconless MA (or a reduced range icon, ala Jekyll - I like the idea). Ok for me, it's Htc. choice.

Nevertheless, here it goes a simple solution that could work: I think we could live with iconless arena if we reserve, lets say half of the tail and half of the wings of each plane to colour Red -> enemy or Green-> friend. I think that this would allow a decent IFF. It works as it is with Ponys, P47-D30 and P38's. Easy to spot, and easy to tell wether is a "white" spot or a "black" one, even out of icon range.

Game on  

Cheers,

Pepe

AKSeaWulfe

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2001, 06:52:00 AM »
I dunno about knowing who your opponent is. That takes all of the fun out of dogfighting... not knowing who you're up against.

Not to mention the only thing you'd be able to tell from the plane would be squad markings unless you decided to fly 10ft off his wing to study him closely.

I do not want to know who I'm fighting until they've blown up, crashed or bailed out.
-SW

Offline Jekyll

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Suggestion for icons and ranging
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2001, 07:41:00 PM »
AKSeawulf said:

 
Quote
Not to mention the only thing you'd be able to tell from the plane would be squad markings unless you decided to fly 10ft off his wing to study him closely.

Bzzt wrong.  In WW2 pilots came to know exactly who they were up against from the tail and plane numbers of their opponents.

When John T Godfrey was shot down, Luftwaffe interrogators wanted to know why he was flying in VF-F instead of his usual plane, VF-P.

How far from another plane would you need to be to identify those bloody big letters on the fuselage sides?

As for the close range 'pilot identifier' taking all the fun out of the fight, are you serious?

Picture this... you are executing a perfect bounce on a lower Spitfire.  The range closes ... you think this guy is asleep  

As you reach close range the icon changes to 'Mitsu', or 'Hangtime', or 'NathBDP'.  You reckon you aren't gonna start sweating a little heavier when your opponent goes into his evasive?

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 01-30-2001).]