OUCH

[wpeters]

Wonder if the first B-24 is pilot wounded.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfYMtSiFuIc

[danny76]

  these brave guys.

Some good footage. Of particular interest is the low 6 and dead six attacks on B17's/24's where tye attacker appears able to place his cannon rounds with relative impunity from 200 down to 50 yards. A marked difference from in game where trying a similar tactic would have your fighter shredded from 1k out

[Rogue9Volt]

these brave guys.

Some good footage. Of particular interest is the low 6 and dead six attacks on B17's/24's where tye attacker appears able to place his cannon rounds with relative impunity from 200 down to 50 yards. A marked difference from in game where trying a similar tactic would have your fighter shredded from 1k out

Yeah, I was thinking that..  Especially the one where the guy in the 110 just sits there, dead six off the b17 for like three minutes.  Got me thinking how likely it was for turret gunners to be killed? Tail gunners specifically?

[B3YT]

i'd think tail end charlie was most vulnerable . not just from direct fire but also from fragments from tail strikes  .  they were the heaviest losses in Lancaster
 . 

[Rogue9Volt]

i'd think tail end charlie was most vulnerable . not just from direct fire but also from fragments from tail strikes  .  they were the heaviest losses in Lancaster
 . 

Not to mention how many B17's I've seen with the vertical stabilizer all shot to hell.  Can't be healthy for lil' charlie...

[smoe]

I did a little experiment using b26's in the Dueling Arena. I had an enemy fire mg rounds directly into my b26 tail gunner's position. The result was 9 total b26's shot down and no tail gunner positions ever were damaged only until after the b26's entire tail was shot off did the tail gunner appear on the damage list.

I did this experiment because after numerous times of pouring dozens of hit sprites into a b26 tail gunner's position without any apparent damage. I remember approaching a single b26 and making multiple hits on the tail gunner's position. I then approached at its low 6 thinking the tail gunner has to be damaged, but to no avail I would still get shot down.

[GScholz]

these brave guys.

Some good footage. Of particular interest is the low 6 and dead six attacks on B17's/24's where tye attacker appears able to place his cannon rounds with relative impunity from 200 down to 50 yards. A marked difference from in game where trying a similar tactic would have your fighter shredded from 1k out

In AH bomber defensive fire is OP. IIRC HiTech said it was intensional to give the bombers a chance in the MA. However, in scenarios it heavily skews the battle in favor of the bombers. In real life the Luftwaffe lost one fighter for every three heavy bombers shot down, and most of those fighter losses would be to the Allied escorts.

[mthrockmor]

Two takeaways.

One, I suspect the fighters in AH are far more stable firing platforms than real life.
Two, Most bomber deaths would likely be pilot kills.

On the second point, it is amazing how much damage those bombers took without turning into torches or blowing wings. Knowing the 110 gun packages those 20mm rounds likely tore all the way through the plane fuselage, likely injuring and/or killing most crew.

Isn't it true that more Army Air Corps crewmembers died over Europe than all Marines in the Pacific? Not a slight on the Marines, just a measure of the carnage over the skies of Europe.

boo
 

[Lusche]

But fighters are also still more effective in AH vs bombers than in real life.

As per wikipedia, the Schweinsfurt-Regensburg mission had 376 bombers (escorted for the first leg only) facing 400 Luftwaffe fighters.
In the end, 60 bombers and about 25 German fighters were shot down.

If we transpose that to AH we'd have about 12 formations of B-17s (=36 planes) facing about the same number of fighters. No way such a raid would lose only 6 bombers... the chances are high only 6 would actually reach the factories.

Or battles are much more bloody for all sides.

[GScholz]

Luche, how many of those 400 Luftwaffe fighters actually made the intercept? In real life most of the 109s fuel (including DT) was used just to get to the intercept. In AH the intercept is usually just a few minutes away after take-off. I agree that the bombers are at a disadvantage in the MA... because they are so easy to intercept. However in scenarios it's different. In real life if you had a 109 or 190 on the tail of your B-17 or B-24 it usually meant death. Back then, getting on the tail of that bomber was the challenge, not pulling the trigger.

[caldera]

Notice also, that no B-24s in the film go Zippo-mode when they get a scratch.  B-24's in-game flammability is a bit overdone, IMO. 

I did a little experiment using b26's in the Dueling Arena. I had an enemy fire mg rounds directly into my b26 tail gunner's position. The result was 9 total b26's shot down and no tail gunner positions ever were damaged only until after the b26's entire tail was shot off did the tail gunner appear on the damage list.

I did this experiment because after numerous times of pouring dozens of hit sprites into a b26 tail gunner's position without any apparent damage. I remember approaching a single b26 and making multiple hits on the tail gunner's position. I then approached at its low 6 thinking the tail gunner has to be damaged, but to no avail I would still get shot down.

Meanwhile, the B-29 tail gunner gets killed easily.  Was there armor for the tail gunner in any of the bombers in the real war?

[homersipes]

most of that footage makes me cringe, as the thought that the guys in bombers were sitting ducks   to all of them not just Americans, but all of them.  I couldn't imagine that

[wpeters]

most of that footage makes me cringe, as the thought that the guys in bombers were sitting ducks   to all of them not just Americans, but all of them.  I couldn't imagine that

+1.   Those guys r some of the bravest men in the war.noing also if you were shot down the least of your worries were the Germans capturing you. 

[GScholz]

Here is the complete Luftwaffe training film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuxpnx4Tic

There are a couple of bombers that flame-ball...

[Lusche]

Luche, how many of those 400 Luftwaffe fighters actually made the intercept?

I thought about that too. But even when assuming that only half of the fighter force (~200, this mission report speaks of 300 making attacks)  came to attack the bombers (so 12 sets B-17s vs 20-30 fighters) in AH, a loss of only 6 bombers would be a astonishing thing - and the bombers in AH usually fly significantly faster than in RL.

Both bombers as well as fighter suffer much higher losses in AH than in real life. This holds true for scenarios as well, unless the bombers go through undetected.