Author Topic: Fighting  (Read 8890 times)

Offline pembquist

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1928
Re: Fighting
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2014, 07:40:39 PM »
I'm not sure what the question is about. Is it people running away? BnZing and then disengaging? I would imagine that high up on motivations to disengage would be that landing with any kill feels better than dying, but you really have to figure out how to poll the people whose behavior you want to address.

Personally I don't care about getting shot down which is good because that's the most frequent outcome. To tell you the truth I think I would be happiest it if you couldn't actually shoot down an opponent so that the battles could just go on and on getting slower and turnier and closer to the deck, or resetting and re-merging. That's the good stuff, and for mediocre players like me it is in short supply.
Pies not kicks.

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Fighting
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2014, 08:01:48 PM »
this game doesnt define me as a human being nor does it give me honor.  it's laughable how some players think that how they play the game is the same as how they act in life. Quote from semp.
How you play games is absolutely how you act in life. Win at all costs? yup. The game may not GIVE you honor, but it DAMNED sure shows whether or not you act with honor in RL. In life, it's how you act when no one is looking that shows how you really are.

Arnold Palmer had one of best analogies of games and life and how they're intertwined...."Bad golfer...bad person".  He didn't mean in the skills department.  He was talking about the guy that hits one in the forest and then throws his club into the pond or the guy that misses a putt and then beats the green to death because he missed it.

People are who they are...games like this magnify it in some cases.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Fighting
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2014, 08:11:40 PM »
The explanations you all have given so far are perfectly fine.  Those opinions are yours...no one can give you your opinion and really, none of us should belittle those.  They are what they are. 

That being said, not everyone answered the question.  Please feel free to answer it or come up with F. G. H. if you think its the right one.  I'm genuinely interested because it gives me a perspective so I don't complain about someone's style of fight. 

Lots of comments about honor.  The game doesn't give anyone honor...they either have it when they get here or they don't.  Honor is different for everyone although the definition seems to be moving target at the moment.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Shifty

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9377
      • 307th FS
Re: Fighting
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2014, 08:18:01 PM »
Judging another person's honor intregity or maturity by the way they fight in an airplane game is absurd. Letting a damn video game rule your life to the point where you make value judgements on people you have never met is carrying it just a bit far folks.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Fighting
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2014, 08:22:44 PM »

And most of the armchair heroes who love to boast in the forums about how they "LIVE FOR THE FIGHT!!!!"  are just blowhards and liars. I'm in the MA often enough to see how you wusses really play. 9 out of 10 are really alt monkeys, picktards, horde weenies, and landing vulchers in the MA. There are a few exceptions and for them I  :salute but among the many forum blowhards they are few and far between.

I'm not sure your ratio is true.  I'm sure there are a few but this game is too transparent (shady shaders notwithstanding) because your style is attached to your name and when you win or lose your name pops up so to thump your chest about being a fighter and then end up running is a little too obvious.  All of us could rattle off a list of 25 to 30 folks in our time zones that fight, without fail, no matter what.  You could challenge that list but I doubt you could support your challenges.

Everyone vulches, everyone flies with the horde (I have seen Dodger and SERaider start a fight and when the DAR bar grows, here comes the horde so it appears that they're hording), pickers, alt fairies et al.  The difference is this:  they'll fight whenever and whoever, win or lose.  Everyone is looking for something different I guess. 

"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Fighting
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2014, 08:27:02 PM »
Judging another person's honor intregity or maturity by the way they fight in an airplane game is absurd. Letting a damn video game rule your life to the point where you make value judgements on people you have never met is carrying it just a bit far folks.

Then you must believe that its ok to be someone different in a game than you are in real life.  Ok.  It doesn't mean your right or I'm wrong.  Making value judgements on people's in game behavior doesn't mean the game is ruling ones life either.  Its an opinion based on their behavior...MY behavior...ME....I'm responsible for what I do.  I don't expect you or anyone else to let me off the hook "of opinion" because its a game. 
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline sonic23

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 407
Re: Fighting
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2014, 08:45:28 PM »
I like my chances in a 1v1 no matter the plane so i always look to set it up but once that second plane comes in i run like a scared lil school girl. :bolt:
Sonic23 ++Blue Knights++
Sonic27 -==Hell Hounds==-

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Fighting
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2014, 08:59:58 PM »
My playing style has changed numerous times over the years and to a lesser degree, changes from session to session.

I've always been a GVer to a relatively large degree, even in AW and that's never changed.

In AH I spent years playing every aspect of the game.  I didn't care one bit about score.  My typical day was to look at the map and wherever we were most undermanned was where I felt I was most needed.  I'd fly there, typically from a base back (another aspect of my game that's really never changed) to get some working altitude then dive to the deck giving up all my advantages at the first sight of a low con (I still do that too).  1:1, 1:5, 1:10 I didn't care.  I died a lot but got pretty good with my ACM and SA and was able to win some 1:3's from time to time.  I played with reckless abandon.

For a couple of years I played for nothing but score, was usually in the top 50 and even made top 10 several times.  At that point it was all about killing and making it home alive and whatever I had to do to accomplish that I did.  It really wasn't hard at all as I was already playing every aspect of the game, I just needed to tighten things up a bit and add a little dose of caution to my playing style.

The next phase I went through was trying to land two kills in every plane in the game while holding at least a 1:1, then later a 2:1 K/D ratio in each.  That's where I started to learn the entire planeset.  It was also my most cautious period making sure I had enough of an advantage to offset my lack of knowledge of the aircraft I was flying until I became more comfortable in it.

Prior to BoB I was flying a Spit I in the MA for a couple of months taking on whatever I found.  Lately I'm sort of back to square one.  Take off a base back, give up all my alt early then fight whatever's there.

I've also always enjoyed buff hunting so you will find me relatively high early in my sorties just in case I run across a set of buffs.

One thing I noticed was that I used to really like to find a good 1:1 but lately I get bored with them and enjoy 1:2, 1:3 and even an occasional 1:4 much more or trying to fight my opponents fight even though it may not be the best way for me to win. 

I've also given up many aspects of gameplay (bombers, attack sorties, etc.) largely due to the centralization of the strat system.  Without those aspects of the game to keep me interested my playtime has diminished greatly and now I find myself logging on and just sitting in a GV or field gun to feel like I'm still part of the game.  Upping to head to a fight that dissipates just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Now, to answer your question; it just depends on what phase I'm in.  Right now I don't run from anything but that could change next month and I won't know the reason why until it happens.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Fulcrum

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1183
Re: Fighting
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2014, 09:17:09 PM »
Then you must believe that its ok to be someone different in a game than you are in real life.  Ok.  It doesn't mean your right or I'm wrong.  Making value judgements on people's in game behavior doesn't mean the game is ruling ones life either.  Its an opinion based on their behavior...MY behavior...ME....I'm responsible for what I do.  I don't expect you or anyone else to let me off the hook "of opinion" because its a game. 

Define what you mean by "behavior". How the player acts (e.g. Respectful or abusive on vox, ch200, etc), how they play the game (e.g. How they fight, what they value from a game perspective, etc), both?
Going by "Hoplite" now. :)

Offline uptown

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8566
Re: Fighting
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2014, 09:32:49 PM »
Well I see y'all are still asking each other stupid questions  :rolleyes:
Lighten up Francis

Offline uptown

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8566
Re: Fighting
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2014, 09:41:44 PM »

Possibly it's a modification of your Answer A, or perhaps it's an entirely different Answer F.  But over the years many people have posted that they fly this as a genuine simulation; their goal is to fly the way a pilot in a real war would fly.  Often that will mean that they avoid combat when they perceive they are disadvantaged.

It isn't my choice, but I recognize it's valid enough.  I remember a couple of guys we used to see in AvA who played their roles to the hilt.  No idle chit-chat, formalized radio communication, landing in trail, that sort of thing.  Hey, it was good to have them there, even if it did sound a bit odd to my ears.

- oldman
This ^^^^^  and some of you need to remember that people don't play for you to have a good time. They play for THEIR enjoyment. Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant.
Lighten up Francis

Offline Fulcrum

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1183
Re: Fighting
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2014, 09:48:04 PM »
Agreed on all points.
Going by "Hoplite" now. :)

Offline JUGgler

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1269
Re: Fighting
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2014, 10:06:13 PM »
I have spoken via PM and via telephone lately to a number of folks that play the game.   Almost all of these folks won't skip a fight no matter the planes involved or the advantage or disadvantage.  They're typically categorized as old timers I guess. Yes, there are plenty of newer folks that will fight, no doubt.  Plenty of GV fights...Lordy Lordy those guys get it on, seriously.  But regarding the air, we wanted to ask the community.

Here is our multiple choice question for the community:

Why don't more players stay in an aerial fight during gameplay in any aerial situation?

A.  Fighting to the death isn't as fun as landing kills of any kind

B.  They don't really have the personal time to learn enough ACM to get themselves out of pickles of any size but still love flying and competing

C.  Too much ego-bashing and bullying on 200 the times they DID stay and fight but lost and then had to hear about it for an hour

D.  Love to have a great score.  This is a reason BTW and it really shouldn't be harassed.  If it wasn't, there wouldn't be scoring in the first place

E.  This is how they learned the game from the start.  Hittum and forget um

There are other reasons obviously but these came up so I thought I'd ask you.   In an attempt and changing some gameplay and maybe even some attitudes about the fight to help keep people we already have and to keep new folks interested in getting better.

 :salute

A.  I don't think fighting to the death is the issue for most, they seem to eagerly die by the grundle when part of a  base capture. Of course landing many kills is great fun for the masses!!

B.  Most don't care about learning ACM, in fact the game encourages precise reaction rather than a great understanding of ACM. The best "chess match" ACM abundant fights I ever had were 262 vs 262, the reason being the speeds started so high that it essentially slowed down the thought process and allowed the fight to morph into an energy, angles, risk, reward chess match. Fighting the horde, or fighting with the more abundant slower rides requires more "reactionary memory and stick precision" than thinking and actual application of ACM.

C.  I can't say ego bashing was ever that big of a deal, the bashing usually was brought on by an instigation of mouth slippage rather than someone "outwardly gloating over a victory". Of course if you've developed a rival who every time you know if you lose to, they are beaming on the inside and if you win, you are beaming on the inside" than the tension will be acute and victory all the sweeter, and defeat---agony. But these rivals are to be cherished and sought after.

D.  Great score for the majority is only a fleeting interest. The time and effort required to be in the top 10 is exhausting and hardly worth the effort cause it takes so much "gamey style" play to achieve it. I tried for 2 tours many years ago and came to this conclusion--->  "F#CK TH*T"

E.  Everyone learns this from the start, getting consistent kills early in your AH career can be frustrating, and there is something to be said for surviving when you have limited or "early career" skills. When you are new to say "mid experience" in your AH life than sometimes surviving and extricating yourself from the grasp of say Levi, Grizz, Skyrock, Bruv, etc etc is most certainly a small win and honestly should be treated as such. I know before I took my break, if I had you in my grasp, odds were not good for you, if you managed to get away then <S> you and shame on me, it was my loss.

When you are learning, survival is very important. The longer you survive "in the current moment" the more you learn in that moment. Going up against Grizz every couple minutes and being slaughtered in 1-2 turns over and over again will teach you nothing but frustration. Going against Grizz every couple minutes and Grizz holding his fire will teach you enormously.

When I finally made the transition from caring to much, to not caring at all my skill level went thru the roof.

To finally answer the question, I think most folks "if not all" experience "thru an AH career" all of the examples on the list to some varying degree. Some get thru them quicker than others and some may skip a couple. but we all follow a similar path.


Changeup, you have become a skilled and capable player over the years, and your ideas and thoughts are miles away from where they were in the beginning, as are mine. People will progress as they will, some more competitive than others but they are all progressing every minute they are on the game.

The game itself should encourage intense interaction, but I remember the system is geared towards newer folks and a more "less intense" approach, not the Precise and efficient killing styles of grizzled vets. The vets are now out in the cold so to speak, and must find "LIKE" challenges on their own, you will never ever get it from the masses except in disproportionate #s. Hence this is why my style evolved to JUGgling on the deck, in inferior rides basically being the mole in the AH equivalent of "WHACK-A-MOLE"  <-- this is definitely a challenge and I believe being the only challenge most nights, burned me out!

Maybe eliminating the messages about who you've killed would allow some folks to unburden their pride a little and get ALL IN. Leaving the messages of "who killed you" should stay for inspiration  :aok


JUGgler
Army of Muppets

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Re: Fighting
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2014, 10:43:50 PM »
I have spoken via PM and via telephone lately to a number of folks that play the game.   Almost all of these folks won't skip a fight no matter the planes involved or the advantage or disadvantage.  They're typically categorized as old timers I guess. Yes, there are plenty of newer folks that will fight, no doubt.  Plenty of GV fights...Lordy Lordy those guys get it on, seriously.  But regarding the air, we wanted to ask the community.

Here is our multiple choice question for the community:

Why don't more players stay in an aerial fight during gameplay in any aerial situation?

A.  Fighting to the death isn't as fun as landing kills of any kind

B.  They don't really have the personal time to learn enough ACM to get themselves out of pickles of any size but still love flying and competing

C.  Too much ego-bashing and bullying on 200 the times they DID stay and fight but lost and then had to hear about it for an hour

D.  Love to have a great score.  This is a reason BTW and it really shouldn't be harassed.  If it wasn't, there wouldn't be scoring in the first place

E.  This is how they learned the game from the start.  Hittum and forget um

There are other reasons obviously but these came up so I thought I'd ask you.   In an attempt and changing some gameplay and maybe even some attitudes about the fight to help keep people we already have and to keep new folks interested in getting better.

 :salute


Offline Triton28

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2248
Re: Fighting
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2014, 10:49:24 PM »
Arlo, you were supposed to answer the question or stfu, not post your Tommy Lee Jones pic for the 39th time.    :)

Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
      -AoM-