Author Topic: Is induced drag modeled in AH?  (Read 3451 times)

Offline MachNix

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 02:19:54 PM »
Okay,
CL is coefficient of lift
Pi is pi
e is Oswald's efficiency factor
A is aspect ratio
But if R is Reynolds number, that looks like a problem and should not be there.

You would use the Reynolds number to calculate the zero-lift drag (DF) for the wing which is a combination of form drag and skin friction drag.  But Reynolds number is a function of airspeed and speed should not be a function of any coefficients.  If you are dividing by speed here when calculating the drag coefficient, and then later multiplying it by square of the speed in the dynamic pressure term, the induced drag is going to be low.  But it is still a function of AOA.

Can you give the link to the wikii info?  I could not find it just doing a quick search.

Offline hitech

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 02:25:58 PM »
R is not Renolds

AR is AspectRatio. Hence why I said  3DIVISOR terms not 4


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-induced_drag

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Offline olds442

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2014, 03:33:03 PM »
That looks a awful lot like C or C++, what language is aces high in?
only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 03:49:37 PM »
That looks a awful lot like C or C++, what language is aces high in?

Both, mostly C

Offline MachNix

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2014, 05:17:44 PM »
AR is AspectRatio. Hence why I said  3DIVISOR terms not 4

Already knew that pi was constant so the three terms you mention I thought applied to eAR.  So good you are not dividing by the Reynolds number.

Thanks for the link to wikii.

From the first equation on wikii:
Di = 1/2 * rho * V^2 * S * CDi

The lift equation has the same form:
L = 1/2 * rho * V^2 * S * CL

This gives:
(Di  / L ) = (CDi / CL)
or
Di  = L * (CDi / CL)

Doing some quick, back of the envelop calculations, the CDi / CL for the Seafire near the stall is about 0.105 which is in keeping with the Clark Y airfoil on wikii at about 0.1.

So induced drag is modeled and it is based on AOA.  But only a 3 hp increase in power required from the minimum drag to the stall?  I would have never guessed that to be right.

And I missed lunch!   :mad:

Offline Arlo

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2014, 05:22:10 PM »
So induced drag is modeled and it is based on AOA. 

Well there ya go.

Offline pembquist

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2014, 08:37:56 PM »
Hell must be freezing over. I have to salute MachNix for being capable of persuasion by argument. Something I don't think I have ever seen anybody else capable of on this wretched BBS. You have restored my faith in humanity.
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Offline olds442

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2014, 09:20:22 PM »
Both, mostly C

Yay, C is my personal favorite language, C++ has too many exceptions IMO.
only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2014, 09:21:22 PM »
Yay, C is my personal favorite language, C++ has too many exceptions IMO.

But it's a better grade. I can't even speak F.

Offline hitech

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2014, 10:35:47 PM »
Yay, C is my personal favorite language, C++ has too many exceptions IMO.

My view has been that C++ makes bad programers worse.

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Offline mensa180

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2014, 07:55:32 AM »
My view has been that C++ makes bad programers worse.

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I think Linus Torvalds has some rants you'd enjoy.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2014, 11:46:41 AM »
I think Linus Torvalds has some rants you'd enjoy.

I went a read some of his stuff, and also the c++ guys counter to it. I did get a kick out his posts.
Btw I wrote my first code back in 1974 on a PDP8.

Of course my first programs were games (guess a number hi lo game) and next a navel battle game where you had to enter the elevation to shoot the other guys ship, and the computer would say xx yards short or long.

 This is before the apple & trs80 had yet to be invented. My first Unix and C work professionally was in 1984.

I have used C++ code from guys who obviously have been around the block a long time, and they basically stayed away from all the pitfalls of people who think all data should be objects.

There are things I like very much about C++ building math library's with over loads is one of them. But I have seen far to many c++ code that including one piece of it, causes the headers to have to propagate threw your entire project. This is not really the languages fault, but simply the OO concept run a muck.

In the gaming side the biggest differences you can tell is on load times. If the game was designed by someone who has intimate knowledge of c & memory layouts , they can load huge pieces of data quickly. If some one goes off the deep end and think all items need to be objects with the ability to be overload. Load times can be measured in minutes.

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Offline Arlo

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2014, 01:07:20 PM »
... a navel battle game where you had to enter the elevation to shoot the other guys ship, and the computer would say xx yards short or long.

Then you could add this to Aces High?  :D

Offline bozon

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2014, 02:59:14 PM »
OK, here's a short test of induced drag and the power curve.

I measured the time-to-climb between 1000 and 4000 feet. For each plane I used the auto-climb set to the various IAS, starting from sea level, but taking time only starting from 1000 feet to let the speed settle. In all planes I used max power (WEP) except the Yak-3 that has none. The mean rate of climb is simply 3000 feet divided by time measured.

The auto-climb cloud not hold the yak at 110 mph, even though a player can hold it at speeds even slightly lower than 100 mph. So for the slowest speed in the Yak3 I just help it manually keeping the stall horn buzzing the whole time. The speed was slightly over 100, so I marked it at 105, but the climb time was probably longer than it could be because I was not fully stable and banked a little occasionally - the Yak climb angle is so steep that I see only skies in the front view...

Moss VI - 50% fuel, 170 rpg packege
190A8 - 25% fuel, 2*20mm package
Yak3 - 100% fuel

Here is the mean rate of climb:


And here is the rate of climb normalized to the rate at best climb speed:


The Yak-3 suffers very little energy loss due to induced drag on the back of the power curve. Even when flying with the stall buzzer yelling, it loses just a hair over 10% of its max climb rate (87%), while the climb rate of the Mossie and A8 plummets to 55% and 73% of their climb at best speed.

Whether or not this is true to reality, I still need to think about it - but I want to shoot at red icons, so I'll do the thinking later. However, these are the game facts and a confirmation to my feeling that the Yak-3 loses very little energy even when flying on the stall, while the mossie becomes a dump truck when flying on the back of the power curve.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Is induced drag modeled in AH?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2014, 03:12:35 PM »
bozon: The prop and HP will have a huge effect on these curves.

Bigger HP planes will typically drop off much move at slower speeds do to not being able to convert the HP into thrust.

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