FW-190 A5 Speed@sea level.

[J.A.W.]

Well - it was in the 'ball-park'..

[Tank-Ace]

If you are suggesting that less is better cannon-wise Knak, that might apply to a lightweight like a Spit or 109,
for fighter vs fighter A2A, or for 190 JABOs for ordnance reasons - but def' not to Typhoon/Tempest/Beaufighter/Mosquito
 & any suggestion to that effect in the actual combat setting would have been described as ludicrous..

I recall reading in Johnny Johnson's memoir about the relative fear of impact of the light 109 armament vs the 4 cannon,
190 fit-out, & when Spitfires finally got beefy enough, in the 20 series, they too standardised on the 4 cannon that the Hawker fighters had toted since 1940..

Okay, so for a fighter that intends to do any real fighting, fewer cannons is better. Glad we established that.

[J.A.W.]

Not if its a real fighter, that can easily tote 4 cannon - & not a puny sport-plane

[Karnak]

If you are suggesting that less is better cannon-wise Knak, that might apply to a lightweight like a Spit or 109,
for fighter vs fighter A2A, or for 190 JABOs for ordnance reasons - but def' not to Typhoon/Tempest/Beaufighter/Mosquito
 & any suggestion to that effect in the actual combat setting would have been described as ludicrous..

When shooting down single engined fighters once you have effective firepower to do it additional firepower isn't as useful as reduced weight.  Obviously this is more relevant to a light fighter, but the Typhoon isn't heavy enough to fall into the Mosquito's category.  The Typhoon would gain more lethality against Fw190s by losing the weight of two Hispano Mk IIs and their related installation/support weight than it does from the extra firepower.

I recall an American fighter pilot's comment about the eight .50s in the P-47 as compared to the four in the P-51B that went something like:
"If you aren't going to hit with four guns you aren't going to hit with eight either."

That is what it comes down to.  If you hit with the Spitfire's two guns the Fw190 is toast and it won't be more toast if you hit it with four.  Toast is toast.

I suspect you are underestimating how much damage 20mm cannons do.

[Tank-Ace]

Karnak, he's underestimating what a couple of .50's can do.


Especially in real life, where pilots wouldn't try to coax a severely damaged plane back to base, and would instead bail.

[J.A.W.]

When shooting down single engined fighters once you have effective firepower to do it additional firepower isn't as useful as reduced weight.  Obviously this is more relevant to a light fighter, but the Typhoon isn't heavy enough to fall into the Mosquito's category.  The Typhoon would gain more lethality against Fw190s by losing the weight of two Hispano Mk IIs and their related installation/support weight than it does from the extra firepower.

I recall an American fighter pilot's comment about the eight .50s in the P-47 as compared to the four in the P-51B that went something like:
"If you aren't going to hit with four guns you aren't going to hit with eight either."

That is what it comes down to.  If you hit with the Spitfire's two guns the Fw190 is toast and it won't be more toast if you hit it with four.  Toast is toast.

I suspect you are underestimating how much damage 20mm cannons do.


What you apparently  fail to realize with such 'simplistic' ideas is that if you have a fleeting-split second target shot,
then 4 cannon are gonna do much more effective damage in that time-frame than any lesser armament.

Why do you imagine the RAF standardised on 4 cannon, even for the lightweight Vampire..

[Tank-Ace]

Because jet engines are better able to handle the weight of cannons. Duh.


If cannons are so necessary, why is it that the F-86 Saber still used .50 caliber machine guns, and is still regarded as one of the best fighters of that era?

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, that is a classic example, the USAF realized they'd made a big mistake there..
 Since - when it came to combat in Korea, they had to belatedly go through a cannon program for the F-86..

Mind you - the USN had gone to 4 cannons in time for that conflict..

[Karnak]

Think of what the Vampire's intended/expected target was and the target we are talking about here.

We are not talking about stopping inbound bombers.  Were talking about fighter vs fighter combat.

[J.A.W.]

Think of what the Vampire's intended/expected target was and the target we are talking about here.

We are not talking about stopping inbound bombers.  Were talking about fighter vs fighter combat.

RAF fighters were expected to deal with all targets as expeditiously as possible, that's why 4 cannon
were the standard fit for all new designs from 1940..

[Ack-Ack]

If cannons are so necessary, why is it that the F-86 Saber still used .50 caliber machine guns, and is still regarded as one of the best fighters of that era?

When the Sabre was being developed, North American decided that the higher rate of fire from the machine guns was preferable over the slower rate of fire of 20mm cannons.  During the Korean War, many DPRK and ChiCom pilots reported having difficulty hitting Sabres because of the slower rate of fire of the 23mm cannon on the MiG 15, while a lot of Sabre pilots complained that their machine guns only inflicted light damage and allowing bandits to escape north of the Yalu.  

Because of Sabre pilot complaints, the USAAF modified a few F-86s with M39 20mm cannons (F-86F-2) and another batch with 20mm Oerlikon cannons (F-86F-3) and tested them in the Korean War (Project Gun Val).  During Project Gun Val, it was found if the modified Sabres fired all four cannons at the same time, the exhaust gases sometimes caused compressor stalls in the engine and the turbojet flamed out.  Modifications were further made to only allow one pair to fire at a time to prevent flaming out the engine.  Project Gun Val lasted for 16 weeks and in that time the cannon Sabres were credited with six confirmed MiG-15 kills and 3 probables (supposedly all honcho pilots but no records to confirm).  The results of the test eventually led to the F-86H being equipped with 20mm cannons.

ack-ack

[Tank-Ace]

Huh... Learn something new every day.

[J.A.W.]

The Australian built Sabre-jets got R-R Avon power & 30mm Aden cannon..