P51D V Tiffy

[SAJ73]

Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game, right after Fw-190s? Wait, I guess now with the Me-410 it'll probably be third.

I don't agree, I am not saying it's a turny plane. But it can be turned with many of the best if you just know how to snap up some E here and there during the fight. It is challenging, but that's the fun part of it I think.

[The Fugitive]

I don't agree, I am not saying it's a turny plane. But it can be turned with many of the best if you just know how to snap up some E here and there during the fight. It is challenging, but that's the fun part of it I think.

Agreed, and I think that is where the issue with ponies running comes from. Most people believe like BnZs said, "Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game". If you push it a bit and is a decent turning plane, one of the best at speed. The biggest trick is just knowing when to turn and by how much.

[bozon]

Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game, right after Fw-190s? Wait, I guess now with the Me-410 it'll probably be third.

Those lists of turn rate and turn radius are irrelevant in 90% of the actual fights. They list radii and turn rates at different speeds to each plane, assuming sustained turns. A turning fight is not flying round and round at the slowest speed you can manage. In addition, the planes are not making sustained turns, almost never. If the turns are prolonged it almost always include the loss of altitude and will not match the results for sustained turns. Finally, even if the planes are at 0 altitude, slow, and turning as hard as they can, they are most likely NOT flying around the same circle, and getting a gun solution is not simply flying around the circle till the enemy is infront of you.

The sooner a player realizes this, the better player he becomes and less shocked when a P-47 "outturns" his Spitfire, or a Mosquito hangs with his Yak3 in a turn and pulls a lead.

[Oldman731]

Those lists of turn rate and turn radius are irrelevant in 90% of the actual fights. They list radii and turn rates at different speeds to each plane, assuming sustained turns. A turning fight is not flying round and round at the slowest speed you can manage. In addition, the planes are not making sustained turns, almost never. If the turns are prolonged it almost always include the loss of altitude and will not match the results for sustained turns. Finally, even if the planes are at 0 altitude, slow, and turning as hard as they can, they are most likely NOT flying around the same circle, and getting a gun solution is not simply flying around the circle till the enemy is infront of you.

The sooner a player realizes this, the better player he becomes and less shocked when a P-47 "outturns" his Spitfire, or a Mosquito hangs with his Yak3 in a turn and pulls a lead.

Agreed.  Turn charts are a guide, not an answer.

- oldman

[BnZs]

Agreed, and I think that is where the issue with ponies running comes from. Most people believe like BnZs said, "Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game". If you push it a bit and is a decent turning plane, one of the best at speed. The biggest trick is just knowing when to turn and by how much.

Nope, you can't "push" a plane and make it turn better than the interaction of lift, weight, thrust, and drag allow. Physics is not altered by gumption.

This saying a plane "turns well at speed" is almost meaningless* because every plane in AHII turns about as well at the 250+ mph where all turn is g-limited anyway. A Pony a Typh a Spit a 190 pulling 5gs at 300mph are all producing the same rate and radius of turn.


You can fly an angles fight *less badly* than the other guy, and I frequently do in the Pony, but that is mainly because the other guy isn't managing his own speed well. The sort of thing that is above the pay grade of the average MA stick.  I've flown a lot of planes into seas of red in furball lake, my way of wringing them out, and I gotta say the P-47D-11 is no question better for such operations than the Pony.

The good thing about the Pony is that it can generally force/deny the engagement, and given an "in" to gain position, it is such a good gun platform that it stands a chance of getting a lethal shot on anything in the game in a 1v1. But the Pony driver who isn't certain certain he is in a 1v1 can easily get in trouble killing speed to get that one shot in, because once slow and cornered it has far fewer abilities than most fighters in the game and it doesn't accelerate back to high speed all that quickly. This is why the average MA stick flies the stick nearly in trans-sonic most of the time , but its okay, people would find Ponies even more annoying if they were ubiquitous AND being flown well.  



 

[SAJ73]

Those lists of turn rate and turn radius are irrelevant in 90% of the actual fights. They list radii and turn rates at different speeds to each plane, assuming sustained turns. A turning fight is not flying round and round at the slowest speed you can manage. In addition, the planes are not making sustained turns, almost never. If the turns are prolonged it almost always include the loss of altitude and will not match the results for sustained turns. Finally, even if the planes are at 0 altitude, slow, and turning as hard as they can, they are most likely NOT flying around the same circle, and getting a gun solution is not simply flying around the circle till the enemy is infront of you.

The sooner a player realizes this, the better player he becomes and less shocked when a P-47 "outturns" his Spitfire, or a Mosquito hangs with his Yak3 in a turn and pulls a lead.

This is spot on what I am trying to say too.. Once you learn the P51 you will be able to know ahead of each turn where the enemy will be at and use lag turns where needed, and pull full flaps and lead in just the right time to get yourself in position to fire turn after turn. Even against a yak3. You can even lock onto the 6 of a yak3 in a P51 and stay there through all kinds of moves if you just know the plane and use trottle/flaps and rudder correctly, and don't have a full tank of fuel.

Perhaps not with the best yak3 pilots in the game, but you can still pose a huge threat and cause them to make mistakes.

I have often chopped trottle and used full rudder+flaps to avoid an overshoot, just to find that the yak3 is having a very hard time to shake me off after that.

[The Fugitive]

Nope, you can't "push" a plane and make it turn better than the interaction of lift, weight, thrust, and drag allow. Physics is not altered by gumption.

This saying a plane "turns well at speed" is almost meaningless* because every plane in AHII turns about as well at the 250+ mph where all turn is g-limited anyway. A Pony a Typh a Spit a 190 pulling 5gs at 300mph are all producing the same rate and radius of turn.


You can fly an angles fight *less badly* than the other guy, and I frequently do in the Pony, but that is mainly because the other guy isn't managing his own speed well. The sort of thing that is above the pay grade of the average MA stick.  I've flown a lot of planes into seas of red in furball lake, my way of wringing them out, and I gotta say the P-47D-11 is no question better for such operations than the Pony.

The good thing about the Pony is that it can generally force/deny the engagement, and given an "in" to gain position, it is such a good gun platform that it stands a chance of getting a lethal shot on anything in the game in a 1v1. But the Pony driver who isn't certain certain he is in a 1v1 can easily get in trouble killing speed to get that one shot in, because once slow and cornered it has far fewer abilities than most fighters in the game and it doesn't accelerate back to high speed all that quickly. This is why the average MA stick flies the stick nearly in trans-sonic most of the time , but its okay, people would find Ponies even more annoying if they were ubiquitous AND being flown well.  



 

You can push a plane farther than MOST cartoon pilots do, because MOST cartoon pilots believe that a pony can't turn, is the point I'm trying to make.

The point of turning at speed means if your in a 190 and doing 350 and a pony doing 350 the pony is going to do better in the turn. Yes once they slow down they are are pretty much the same. Again, the point is a good cartoon pilot will "push" the envelope where a newb wouldn't because he is under the impression that it can't do that.

[SirNuke]

I love the P51D but it is Yak3 food once both get under 200mph. Can't run from it can't turn with it..not unlike the 109K4

[BnZs]

The point of turning at speed means if your in a 190 and doing 350 and a pony doing 350 the pony is going to do better in the turn.

No, the Pony is not doing better at the turn. At that speed the limitation both face is the 5g blackout limit. The same speed and same G load in a turn=the same rate and radius, no matter which aircraft are involved. The immutable laws of aerodynamics dictate this. Look it up.

The only exception to this would be a plane with bad high-speed control authority which didn't have the ability to pull high Gs at speed, such as a 109 at 400mph IAS.

[SAJ73]

The 5G blackout can only be sustained for so long unless in a dive, it's when the speed drops just below that point the P51 can kick in the highspeed flaps and keep riding the tunnel.

[BnZs]

The 5G blackout can only be sustained for so long unless in a dive, it's when the speed drops just below that point the P51 can kick in the highspeed flaps and keep riding the tunnel.

Both planes are way above their corner velocity, the one that dumps speed fastest here will gain initial angles. The P-51 has a 5g corner of about 250 in AHII, the 190s will be a little higher, don't really know. But yeah, once it gets down there, those flaps are huge advantage over the 190.

[The Fugitive]

Both planes are way above their corner velocity, the one that dumps speed fastest here will gain initial angles. The P-51 has a 5g corner of about 250 in AHII, the 190s will be a little higher, don't really know. But yeah, once it gets down there, those flaps are huge advantage over the 190.

Your missing the point, a skilled cartoon pilot will push that limit where as the newb will not and only run because he doesn't think it can go there.

[ink]

I hate to...but I must...the P51 is definitely not a zero....but by far is it one of the worst "turners" hell the flaps come out at 300.....

it is great at high speed maneuvers,one of the best..... it is good at slow speed maneuvers....

if anyone thinks the 51 cant turn fight...they should go back and tell Oldemon that   

spend enough time in it...actually fighting and not just lazy Bnzing...you will find the 51 a very capable bird.

[Tank-Ace]

I feel like the P-51 is out of its element TnB'ing. Sure it can do it, but its going to die a lot more.

[ink]

I feel like the P-51 is out of its element TnB'ing. Sure it can do it, but its going to die a lot more.

well ya..it was designed for speed.....but like any fighter in this game...givin enough time it can do wonders...

OlDemon is a perfect example of that with the 51....he seriously made that 51 dance like no other....I remember fighting him on the deck and he is fighting...turn fighting my Hurri.....   I was very impressed with what he could do with that plane.

and then there is M00t with the 152.....