Once Again... The Catalina

[Saxman]

No, no and no.

Fleets were resupplied by freighters, not the light load a flying boat could carry.

PBYs, and other flying boats, were not stealth and would show up on radar just fine.

PBYs, and other flying boats, were not harder to see than other aircraft.


Survivability is what it is.  P-40s don't get compensation because they are less survivable than P-51s.  Want more survivability?  Use an Emily.  Want more perk points for your sortie?  Take a PBY-5A.


Having the flying boat that spots an enemy CV put the enemy CV's icon on the map for a period of time.  Say, keep the fleet in sight for 5-10 minutes to "mark its course" and then the fleet icon stays on the map for ~30 minutes, gradually fading until it is gone.  Causing the icon to show up, or refresh if the fleet already had an icon, would be the trigger to to award the perks/score.  That seems to me to be the best idea for flying boats.  Of course, they will act as bombers as well.

I'd treat it like strategy mode in 1942: The icon position updates only so long as the scout remains within visual contact. Once contact is lost, the icon stays in a fixed position for so long (say, half an hour) to show where the boat was the last time it was spotted, maybe with a tooltip when hovering over the icon giving:

Course Heading
Last Contact

You could then differentiate between "Active" sightings (sightings updated within the last 5 minutes) and "Inactive" sightings (sightings updated later than 15mins) by graying out the icon.

Make "Scout" an actual mission type in the hangar, available to the PBY, H8K, and I'd also argue the SBD and B5N since those also saw heavy use as scouts (I'm divided on whether to do so for the B-24 and B-17. Maybe allow it, but formations are disabled for Scouting missions). Make the PBY and H8K available from ports, and that would give you scout planes available from land bases, ports, and carriers. Points and perks are only awarded for performing scout duties with this mission type, and while the player can still take ordinance, but as with Fighter missions, won't receive points for blowing stuff up when they do. Additionally, ONLY flying a "Scout" mission will mark the CV location.

[Saxman]

Oh, and as for the PBY vs. H8K...

Add them both, and perk the H8K (uses bomber perks).

There were over 3300 Catalinas built compared to just shy of 170 H8Ks. Regardless of capability, the PBY is THE representative flying boat type (more Catalinas produced by the US alone than all of the Sunderlands, H8Ks, H6Ks, Mariners and Marses COMBINED), so even if the Emily and Sunderland are more capable, it would be like having the B-29 and omitting the B-24 to go right to the H8K and not add the Catalina.

[Karnak]

Don't think the H8K has the performance/survivability to justify being perked.  While not many were built, it was worked hard making those 170 far, far more significant to the war than, say, the Ta152 (less than 50), Wirbelwind (less than 50), Ostwind (less than 100), F4U-1C (200), C.205 (250), N1K2-J (just over 400) or P-47M (100).  The PBY-5A was more significant, true, but that sort of relationship has not gotten things like the C.205 perked to protect the usage of the C.202 in the MA.

I am skeptical of perking anything that lacks the performance or survivability to justify perking it. That only leads people to almost never using it as it is a waste of perk points, see Ta152 and Spitfire Mk XIV as examples.  People will use the PBY-5A if they want to just as some people use the P-40E because they want to.

[mthrockmor]

Similar to Greebo I would say the right environment would need to be created.

It would be great for early war scenarios though in general the Naval operations are late-war. An example, you climb into the 5" guns and have the benefit of proximity fuzes, that I am pretty certain, only the US had and it was late-war.

If we added a cargo convoy and lowered the AAA to early war standards the Catalina could have some fun making torpedo runs. Short of that, it would be like upping a Val.

boo

[Saxman]

Don't think the H8K has the performance/survivability to justify being perked.  While not many were built, it was worked hard making those 170 far, far more significant to the war than, say, the Ta152 (less than 50), Wirbelwind (less than 50), Ostwind (less than 100), F4U-1C (200), C.205 (250), N1K2-J (just over 400) or P-47M (100).  The PBY-5A was more significant, true, but that sort of relationship has not gotten things like the C.205 perked to protect the usage of the C.202 in the MA.

I am skeptical of perking anything that lacks the performance or survivability to justify perking it. That only leads people to almost never using it as it is a waste of perk points, see Ta152 and Spitfire Mk XIV as examples.  People will use the PBY-5A if they want to just as some people use the P-40E because they want to.

I think a perk is justifiable if you compare it to other aircraft with the same role, as is the case of the B-29 vs the other US bombers. The H8K out-performs the PBY significantly enough (although I THINK the Catalina had a larger bomb load, I'd have to double check. The Cat also had a FAR more variable armament if you were to include anything the Black Cats did, and I'm sure there's a case to be made for some of those loads) that if both are added it would be the dominant flying boat in the game. A mild perk (5-10) to encourage more use of the Catalina would be fair.

[Karnak]

I think a perk is justifiable if you compare it to other aircraft with the same role, as is the case of the B-29 vs the other US bombers. The H8K out-performs the PBY significantly enough (although I THINK the Catalina had a larger bomb load, I'd have to double check. The Cat also had a FAR more variable armament if you were to include anything the Black Cats did, and I'm sure there's a case to be made for some of those loads) that if both are added it would be the dominant flying boat in the game. A mild perk (5-10) to encourage more use of the Catalina would be fair.

B-29 isn't perked because of how it performs compared to other bombers.  It is perked because of how powerful it would be if uncontrolled.  The same is true of every single perk airplane in the game.

The extremely rare Wirbelwind and Ostwind (combined production for those is less than the H8K2) are not perked to push people into using the M16.

I stand by my assertion that perking units that don't offer significant survival advantages against the common foes in the MA results in those perked units not being used.  In the hypothetical case of the H8K2 vs PBY-5A the merits of the H8K2 over the PBY-5A are irrelevant to its use as a perk plane.  What matters is its merits vs things like P-51Ds, Spitfire Mk XVIs, La-7s and F4U-1Ds.  The B-29 is a challenge for any of those to intercept and destroy.  The H8K2 is unlikely to be more of a challenge for them than the B-17G.

[BaldEagl]

Just give the PBY a very high ENY vs a very low ENY for the H8K2.  Problem solved.

I really like the idea of marking a task group with a "last seen" icon on the map.   

I still think using it as a land based observer/spotter, bomber, torpedo bomber and armed cargo/troop transport alone would have it seeing a lot of use until other functions become viable. 

As to the US planeset already being robust almost every Allied nation flew the PBY.  Skin yours.

It's iconic and should be added to the game.

[XxDaSTaRxx]

Just give the PBY a very high ENY vs a very low ENY for the H8K2.  Problem solved.

I really like the idea of marking a task group with a "last seen" icon on the map.   

I still think using it as a land based observer/spotter, bomber, torpedo bomber and armed cargo/troop transport alone would have it seeing a lot of use until other functions become viable. 

As to the US planeset already being robust almost every Allied nation flew the PBY.  Skin yours.

It's iconic and should be added to the game.

Great idea

[-ammo-]

I see plenty of reasons:

- Totally useless as far as MA goes.

- The US plane set is bloated compared to the other big countries as it is.

- Very, very little use for special events. It is so easy to name aircraft which would be many times more useful as far as these events go.

There are many AC in the plane set that meet this criteria already.  Why shouldn't HTC add this, or the something like the JU-52?

[Wmaker]

There are many AC in the plane set that meet this criteria already. 

Could you name a few?

Why shouldn't HTC add this, or the something like the JU-52?

Because the resources are better spent elsewhere.

[-ammo-]

Because the resources are better spent elsewhere.

Their not your resources and yes there are several AC/vehicles that see minimal use in the MA but are still valued for SEs.

[Karnak]

I really like the idea of marking a task group with a "last seen" icon on the map.   

That works, but the recon aircraft should be required to keep visibility on the fleet for 5-10 minutes before the icon appears.  Some time so that the defender(s) can attempt to stop it.  Just gaining visibility would be too easy.

[matt]

+1

[Wmaker]

Their not your resources and yes there are several AC/vehicles that see minimal use in the MA but are still valued for SEs.

How is it relevant who owns HTC? I'm allowed to have stand on which would be best for AH just like anyone else and use arguments for defending said stance.

and yes there are several AC/vehicles that see minimal use in the MA but are still valued for SEs.

Per your original statement, you said there are many aircraft already in AH which are useless both in events and in the MA (you quoted me and said 'many already fill my criteria'). I asked if you could name a few (I asked since I have a hard time naming one). I'm guessing you can't name any since you are clearly dodging the question . And even if 'bad decisions' were made in the past and such units would have found their way to AH, why add more now?

Your whole logic is flawed.

[Valiant]

A PBY could also be used for air-sea rescue, fishing wet pilots out of enemy waters.  Assign a big perk bonus to rescuing a fellow team member.