Author Topic: Sigh..please no long thread.  (Read 1261 times)

Offline fscott

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« on: January 29, 2001, 06:39:00 PM »
Too much reading, too many differing opinions. Allow me to simplify my question.

Here are the given's.

1- The moon is falling to the earth at 750 mph (according to Hitech), ok let us all just ASSUME that is correct.

2- Forward motion has NO effect on rate of descent. Therefore, the moon's forward motion, which is greater than it's descent, does NOT prevent the moon from falling faster.

3- An object in a vacuum continues to accelerate at the rate of gravity. For the moon's sake let's just ASSUME that the gravitational pull on the moon is 750mph.

Question:

Relating to given #3, what force keeps the moon from accelerating faster and faster beyond it's constant 750mph and crashing into the earth? It would sem to me that since it is in a vacuum, it should continue to accelerate toward the earth and eventually hit the earth. However, it is apparently falling at a constant rate. Explain it.


fscott

Offline 214thCavalier

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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2001, 06:47:00 PM »
Thats easy,
The moon may well be coming towards the earth at 750mph which is not an acceleration measurement anyway  
The reason its not catching up is simple its cos the earths falling away at the same rate into the Sun !!


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Offline hitech

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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2001, 06:53:00 PM »
fscott: assuming 28 day moon orbit, key is to realize in 14 days the moon is falling the completly oposit direction that it was on day 1.
If a plane could create lift with out drag pulling back on the stick would create a force conceptualy the same as gravity. This force points toward the center of a cirle it would fly. Even thow the plane is undergoing an acceleration i.e. (Pilot G Load) the plane is neather speeding up or slowing down, The exact same thing happens in the moons orbit.

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Offline bloom25

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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2001, 06:55:00 PM »
Fscott, the answer to your question is actually pretty simple IMO.  The moon is being accelerated toward the earth via centripetal forces.  (Eqn: F=mass((v^2)/r) r-> radius from earth's center to moon's center. v-> velocity)  It is this force,  which is the gravitational, that "hold" the moon in place.  I think the moon is actually moving away from the Earth.  This would indicate that it is slowing down.

The moon is not unlike a bucket of water that you swing around your head.  The water stays in the bucket due to centripetal forces opposing gravity.

Your question is why doesn't the moon continue to acclerate because it is in a vacuum.  The reason is that all the centripetal force acts toward the center of the earth.  Now consider that the moon has another component of velocity in the "horizontal" direction.  In effect it keeps missing the Earth.  The same thing happens to satelites placed into orbit.  Once they reach a certain speed the centripetal force opposes the gravitational force and they continue to rotate.  When they slow down, centripetal forces decrease and they begin to fall toward the Earth.

Perhaps the best way to think about it is that two forces are balancing each other out.  (That being gravity and centripetal force.)

Did that help, or did I just confuse you more???  

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[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 01-29-2001).]

Offline hitech

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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2001, 07:10:00 PM »
And to answere this question
The reason I ask, and how it pertains to a plane's ability to dive: If we had a zero drag aircraft, I am wondering how weight would play a factor in it's dive? It seems that in a vaccum, weight would play no role in an object's acceleration in a dive. However, I am assuming that weight would play a role in an objects maximum attainable rate of fall, or maximum mph.
However, when thrust is added into the equation, weight then becomes a factor?

Weight dosn't become a factor do to thrust, the weight becomes a factor do to the drag, it's why a feather and bolling ball fall at different speeds when not in a vacume. Even thow the ball has more drag than the feather does (assuming small feather) it's ratio of drag to weight is much greater then the feather. Planes when in a dive work the same way, it's the ratio of drag to weight that will determain it's max dive velocity. Also adding thrust when in a vertical dive is exactly the same as adding weight to the airplane. If you add 1000 Lb of thrust from the engine, that would be identical to not having any thrust but just adding 1000 Lb's of weight to the plane.

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Offline eagl

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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2001, 07:10:00 PM »
It DOES continue to accelerate, however due to it's angular motion, the direction that the moon accelerates is constantly changing so it's not a linear acceleration.

Grossly simplified, it's the same thing as putting a weight on the end of a string and whirling it around your head.  The force you feel on your hand (the tension in the string) is the force of gravity.  If you whirl the weight around harder (increasing your simulated gravitational pull), the weight goes faster.  Let go of the string (simulating setting earth's gravity to zero), the weight flings itself off on a direction almost exactly 90 degrees away from the angle the string was originally stretched out, because that's the weight's actual motion is always 90 degrees away from the direction it's being accelerated.

Think about it this way - At one point of an orbit, the moon is being accelerated towards the earth, and let's call that direction "left".  Imagine the moon at the 3-oclock position on a clock.  For the next 90 degrees of orbit, there will be some acceleration "left".  The exact amount is the sin of the angle away from the original position.  In any case, the moon has had 90 degrees of orbit with a "left" acceleration.  After that 90 deg is completed (moon at the 12-oclock position), the moon can be considered to be on the other side of the earth, and is now being accelerated back to the "right".  By the time the moon is exactly 180 degrees on the other side of the earth (at the 9-oclock position), it's had exactly the same amount of acceleration both left and right, and this is the inherent property of an orbit, namely that in a perfect situation (no tidal forces, no drag, no third object interference, etc), the orbit will continue indefinately at the exact same energy level.  In a perfectly circular orbit, this would mean that at any point in time, the moon would always have the same velocity and height above the earth.  The only thing that changes is the direction of that velocity, because the earth is always pulling the moon in a direction 90 degrees away from it's motion.

If you still don't get it, you never will without a good textbook on basic orbital mechanics and someone to explain it with diagrams and strings with weights attached to them.  I haven't gone into the mathematics involved because while simple, they require a good solid understanding of geometry, trigonometry and Newton's laws.  Understanding vector mathematics helps too, because it's all easy to understand if you know that a vector is a speed plus a direction.

Sigh...  Professor eagl now tries to describe vectors to his class without a blackboard.

Imagine an arrow.  The length of the arrow is the speed, and where the arrow is pointing is the direction.  Forces on a vector pull from the pointy end, and always result in acceleration of some type.  If the force pulls along the shaft of the arrow, the arrow speeds up or slows down.  If the arrow is pulled at an angle though, it turns too.  Imagine then this arrow being pulled at the pointy end exactly 90 degrees off of the arrow's direction.  Since there's no pull to "stretch" the arrow, it doesn't speed up or slow down, it simply turns.  Now imagine the moon is this arrow zinging around the earth.  There's no pull back or forth around the shaft, so the length (speed) of the arrow doesn't change.  The pull is always 90 degrees off, so the arrow just turns.  The speed of the moon simply determines it's orbital height.  Elliptical orbits are slightly more complicated, but mathematically a circular orbit is merely a special type of elliptical orbit anyhow.


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Offline mrfish

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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2001, 07:39:00 PM »
If something is being pushed to the east

While at the same time being pushed to the south

It is likely to go southeast


[This message has been edited by mrfish (edited 01-29-2001).]

Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2001, 08:29:00 PM »
Here we go. If a comet pass close to the earth at a velocity high enough it will obviously not get trapped in earth orbit. Slow it down just the right amount and it will get trapped in earth orbit. I have to define some terms.

G= The gravitational constant 6.672X10^-11 Nm^2kg^-2

me= mass of the earth (could be mass of any planet)

m= mass of the object in this case the moon.

r= the radius of orbit from the center of the earth.

To keep the moon in the current orbit the velocity of the moon must remain the same i.e.

Gmem/r^2=mv^2/r

So as you can see from the formula if you increase the velocity of the moon it will make a larger and larger orbit until it finally departs orbit.

LOL I got on the phone while I was writing this. I was the second person when I got on the phone. LOL

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-29-2001).]

PakRat

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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2001, 08:45:00 PM »
Ding! Ding! Ding!

Eagl wins the prize. One of the few technical answers on a BBS that is correct!

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PakRat

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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2001, 08:56:00 PM »
See here for a very good explanation:

Newtonian Gravitation and the Laws of Kepler


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Offline fscott

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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2001, 10:36:00 PM »
Ok Let's end this thread. Thanks for the responses, although I think some are in conflict with others. I already understood all factors except why the moon doesn't hit the earth. I think the answer elliptical orbit explains this very well.  The pull of the earth brings the moon closer, and then the moon passes the earth and there is less pull, but enough to bring it back around.  The forward motion remains constant, but I take it that the moon actually accelerates its descent during it closest orbits around the earth, yet not strong enough to cause a collision.

fscott

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2001, 11:00:00 PM »
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Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2001, 11:09:00 PM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by fscott:
Ok Let's end this thread. Thanks for the responses, although I think some are in conflict with others. I already understood all factors except why the moon doesn't hit the earth. I think the answer elliptical orbit explains this very well.  The pull of the earth brings the moon closer, and then the moon passes the earth and there is less pull, but enough to bring it back around.  The forward motion remains constant, but I take it that the moon actually accelerates its descent during it closest orbits around the earth, yet not strong enough to cause a collision.

fscott

I know for a fact my answer is exactly right. It is the math behind it. There is no reason to go into anything but a circular orbit to explain it. The forces are equal and opposite and that's all there is to it. Any deviation from circular orbit is just a tweak on the equation. It just that simple. The only thing that matters in the orbit of the moon is it's velocity, radius of orbit, the gravitational constant and the mass of the earth. If you speed the moon up it's radius of orbit will increase. If you slow it down it decreases. It's mass has no baring on it's orbit. It is simply a twist of fate that placed the moon at the right distant for it's velocity to orbit where it does. It is no different then twirling a ball over your head on a rubber band. If you speed up the rotation it tries to move farther out. If you slow it down it moves in. The gravitational force is the rubber band. The difference is that gravity only pulls directly in proportion to the mass of the object it acts on. Thus the mass of the object doesn't matter. If you look at the equation above the mass of the object cancels out. They will collide if the moon slowed down enough. Just like a bullet falling back to earth. If the bullet is fired at a high enough velocity it will go into orbit. At a higher velocity it will escape orbit. Thus the term "escape velocity". There is only one escape velocity on earth and that is 25,038.72mph. There again it is because the earth's mass is what maters. On the moon the escape velocity is 5320.73mph. The moon isn't as massive as the earth. It doesn't matter if your launching an ocean liner or a ballpoint pen. Thus if you wanted to launch the moon into orbit from the earth it will have to reach 25,038.72mph to escape. Could you imaging the thrust that would take! It's still simply equal and opposite forces. If they go out of balance then you got a problem.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-29-2001).]

Offline Dingy

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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2001, 11:10:00 PM »
Easy.

The forward motion of the moon around the Earth (called the angular velocity) is perpendicular to the force applied to the moon by gravity.  The force exerted towards the earth is called the centripetal force.

Remember that forces are vector quantities.  The force that gravity exerts on the moon is exactly that which is required to overcome the angular momentum of the moon to move away from the Earth as it rotates away.  

Since the moon isnt moving away from the earth, the forces must be equal so,

F(centripetal) = F(gravitational)

Think of it this way....if the gravitational forces between the Earth and the moon were to instantly cease, the moons velocity would carry it in a straight line 90 degrees perpendicular to an imaginary line drawn between the Earth and moon.

-Ding


[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 01-29-2001).]

Offline Jigster

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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2001, 11:27:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dingy:
Easy.

The forward motion of the moon around the Earth (called the angular velocity) is perpendicular to the force applied to the moon by gravity.

Remember that forces are vector quantities.  The force that gravity exerts on the moon is exactly that which is required to overcome the angular momentum of the moon to move away from the Earth as it rotates away.  

Think of it this way....if the gravitational forces between the Earth and the moon were to instantly cease, the moons velocity would carry it in a straight line 90 degrees perpendicular to an imaginary line drawn between the Earth and moon.

-Ding

When using Dingy's explanation, it must be kept in mind that the universe is orbiting around a central, infinite mass, within a confined space. This mass is known as "The Infinite Ass"* to which all mass reacts.

* -- For an explanation of "The Infinite Ass" see the Infinite bellybutton Theorum, by Jigster, an analysis of the effects on one being, Dingy, upon reaching the speed of light in a diving P-51D Mustang, located elseware on this bulletin board.

- Da Bess

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