looping fights

[caldera]

Are a big problem for me.  I always seem to lose them.  Can anyone share some tips or strategies on how to conserve energy? 

[JOACH1M]

Don't just throw your flaps out right away. Only use them at the very top with the aid of dropping throttle to gently roll your plane over. Don't use full powers when facing down after the top of your loop, slowly add power on as you pick up your airspeed and begin to go up again. Also bring flaps in a few notches to increase the rate you gain speed back.

[Mongoose]

Don't just throw your flaps out right away. Only use them at the very top with the aid of dropping throttle to gently roll your plane over. Don't use full powers when facing down after the top of your loop, slowly add power on as you pick up your airspeed and begin to go up again.

  Ok, I understand using flaps at the top of the loop, and then bring the flaps back in as you gain speed.  But why not use full throttle when coming over the top and back down?  I would think that this would help you pick up speed faster.

[caldera]

What point is the top of your loop?  Nearing a stall or just after the other guy passes you?  At what point do you make the bottom of your loop?  Lower than the other guy?  What about flaps at the very bottom to initiate the climb?

[ink]

  Ok, I understand using flaps at the top of the loop, and then bring the flaps back in as you gain speed.  But why not use full throttle when coming over the top and back down?  I would think that this would help you pick up speed faster.

dropping throttle can allow you to get around faster

What point is the top of your loop?  Nearing a stall or just after the other guy passes you?  At what point do you make the bottom of your loop?  Lower than the other guy?  What about flaps at the very bottom to initiate the climb?

it all depends on situation, but the top should only be as far up as needed....and unless you are trying to get the very most out of the turn, use flaps only towards the top to help hold the nose up....and get over. 

[Sunka]

All good.
But i must add,a lot has to do with what planes we are talking about with how some rolls are approached, vs certain planes.


Its all very dynamic.
 

[morfiend]

 You ask about looping fights but you fail to mention what type! Are you talking about a 1 circle fight,a tailchase around a loop or are you talking about a 2 circle fight where you would be merging at the top or bottom of the loop?

  I ask this because how you would approach each type of fight could be completely diffierent and what might work in 1 type may not work in the other.

  If it's a tailchase 1 thing you can try is to slow the downleg of the loop and allow the enemy to pull up infront of you as you will cut the corner. You must be careful when cutting power,be sure your nose is starting down before you chop power or you may end up in the dreaded flat spin at the top of the loop. Often I'll cut power and drop as much flaps as I can to slow going nose down,my enemy hopefully is fangs out and on fire, full power wepped up and he will dive further down in his loop so I can catch him comming up about 100 to 200 yrds infront of my nose.

 Recently I was working with a couple of guys in the TA and both were wondering how I kept catching them as they tried to outloop me,when I explained I was cutting power and the corner to them both gave it a try and were amazed at how well it worked!

    If it's a two circle fight there are just to many variables to say do this or that,but I would keep my lift vector on my enemy and try to roll to cut him off either going up or down.


   YMMV.


   

[FLS]

At the top of a loop when you're inverted gravity reduces the load on the wings so you can pull harder than usual for your speed. At the bottom of the loop gravity adds to the load so it will always be a bigger slower turn at the bottom. This makes it look like you're gaining on the top and losing on the bottom even if you're staying even. I think a common mistake is trying to cut the loop for a shot, i.e. lead pursuit, instead of staying in lag pursuit and following the bandit's flight path until you can pull for a good shot.

If you haven't tried it yet you might fly a series of loops for practice, changing the size and shape with and without flaps, and also try a series of loops that climb instead of descending. That should help you get more comfortable looping.

[Kingpin]

I've never really thought about it, but when I don't have the angle or the range to get a shot in the uphill leg, I try to fly lag pursuit and conserve energy so I will crest my loop a bit higher than the other guy.  The problem with trying to pull lead going up is that you are essentially trying to pull a tighter circle (and working against gravity, as FLS said) and are blowing more E.

By being patient and conserving E on the way up, I think you can convert that into a lead angle on the downhill side.  As you cross flight paths you should then get a shot opportunity, either as the other guy rolls over below you or by cutting inside his circle at the bottom (as Morf suggested).

I just made a (very) rudimentary image of this in paint, trying to use the same size loop circles, just to help myself visualize it.  Of course the loops should be more egg-shaped (wider and flatter at the bottom), but the concept is essentially the same.  Notice by flying LAG on the "A-side of the loop", you can come out on top and then naturally transition to a lead angle on the "B side" as you roll over, even while flying the same diameter loop.



At least I think this jives with what Morf and FLS are saying. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

<S>
Ryno

[JOACH1M]

  Ok, I understand using flaps at the top of the loop, and then bring the flaps back in as you gain speed.  But why not use full throttle when coming over the top and back down?  I would think that this would help you pick up speed faster.

well cutting throttle allows you to stay under your enemy. The last thing you want is the motor to pull you to far Infront of your enemy giving him your 6.

What point is the top of your loop?  Nearing a stall or just after the other guy passes you?  At what point do you make the bottom of your loop?  Lower than the other guy?  What about flaps at the very bottom to initiate the climb?

the time of the top of the loop is when your plane simply is at the point of almost complete loss of control. The last little bit of speed is used to roll the plane over perfectly straight back down.

[Drano]

I'll try reducing (not chopping) throttle and increasing a notch of flaps as the nose passes thru the horizon on the way down in order to manage my speed with a little added drag. Getting fast on the way down will tend to reduce your turn rate and increase your turn radius and thus you're losing angles. Hit WEP and clean up flap as the nose passes back thru the horizon on the way up. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Think energy egg. Wide side down. That's generally the shape of the loop you're making. Don't know if you'd ever get it circular as you'll always be changing speeds but the idea is to try to manage it the best you can with flap and throttle.

[caldera]

Good info.  Thanks all. 

[Ack-Ack]

At least in the P-38, you can just use the flaps to loop the Lightning without having to use much stick input.  The flaps on the P-38 generate enough lift that you can loop the plane endlessly, which really pays off in a looping circle fight since you'll bleed less energy than the other guy.

ack-ack

[Sunka]

At least in the P-38, you can just use the flaps to loop the Lightning without having to use much stick input.  The flaps on the P-38 generate enough lift that you can loop the plane endlessly, which really pays off in a looping circle fight since you'll bleed less energy than the other guy.

ack-ack

Tip number #2
Ty AKAK 

[FLS]

I think all the fighters will loop all day with full up trim but you need to correct roll and yaw to stay straight unless it's a P-38.