109's dropping bombs on US bomber formations????

[SkyRock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWPsf9-y3I

check out from the 6:00 mark on...

[Delirium]

They were used but were far less successful than this fantasy film displays.

[GScholz]

If you also see the second part they explain how and why at the end.


Oh and it is not fantasy, it is a machinima of Heinz Knoke's war diary as written in his book.

[SkyRock]

They were used but were far less successful than this fantasy film displays.

it was from a german pilot's diary... 

[GScholz]

They stopped using that tactic when Allied fighter escort became more of a problem. Bomb-laden 109's are easy prey at high altitude.

[Delirium]

.

[BiPoLaR]

They were used but were far less successful than this fantasy film displays.

lulz fail

[pipz]

It was too difficult to hit the bombers consistently. If I recall from reading his book he had a bit of luck hitting the one he did. I think he also said he wished he had never done it because of all the fuss it created to repeat it.


http://www.amazon.com/flew-Fuhrer-story-German-fighter/dp/0809479664/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1394287818&sr=8-2&keywords=i+flew+for+the+fuhrer

[Delirium]

lulz fail

Considering the results were never recreated, I call the entire thing fantasy.

One unit commander had succeeded in breaking up a four-engine bomber formation with a 1,000-pound bomb, and now the other units were beginning to train the same way, but without any success Under these tactics, a few aircraft were armed with single 1,000-pound bombs with time fuses, but in order to succeed the attacking aircraft had to climb above the bomber formation and measure the range in height accurately enough to ensure sufficient blast effect from the bomb. To the best of my knowledge, there was only one instance where a bomber formation was broken up through these tactics.

Johannes Steinhoff

The action in the film was the one instance where the break up occurred on July 28th, 1943. According to Knoke it was Fest that dropped the bomb and was awarded three kills from it, but there are conflicting reports on what actually caused the explosion and was possibly flak or rocket equipped 190s below.

“In addition to the Focke-Wolf 190s dashing headlong through our flight, and dodging the flak from the German anti-aircraft units on the ground, to my horror I saw bombs dropping down upon our formation from the sky above.”

  Clifford Hopewell   (onboard one of the bombers)

Granted, this action mentioned by Hopewell occurred in May, but it displays the chaotic nature of the battles.

edit: In addition, I find Knoke a completely unreliable source due to his questionable political affiliations. Not only during the war but even after the war he held to the Nazi beliefs.

[999000]

I'll admit doing a shame full act a couple of weeks ago.  I'm at about 5k ..see a formation of B17's lifting..takes me a minute or two to do a shallow drive and line them up; drop 12X500  three B17's down..........I couldn't sleep with my wife or myself for three days......the shame!! <S>

[R 105]

 

[FLOOB]

I read a mission report that stated a german fighter was seen towing a bomb on a wire through a bomber formation.

[ROC]

Considering the results were never recreated,

Never fly under Flossy in a Scenario. Just sayin... 

[GScholz]

In addition, I find Knoke a completely unreliable source due to his questionable political affiliations.

So all nazis are liars... and I guess all communists as well, and all liberals, and conservatives, etc. depending on your own political beliefs.

Neither political beliefs, religious beliefs, nationality, skin color, sexual orientation, or any other stereotype labeling makes a person a liar. The only thing that makes a person a liar is lying.

[Stampf]

A couple things surprise me here.

- that this action was not common knowledge by all.

- some of the replies.


This tactic was not a once off deal.  It was attempted several times with the consensus that it was not effective enough for staffel wide operational protocol. The ordinance was 250kg bombs.

Here's the first hand account.  Nothing contained in here suggests the words of a liar.  Quite the opposite in fact.


A famous episode in the saga of JG11.

"Lt Heinz Knoke and Lt. Dieter Gerhard had been theorizing about using bombs slung under their 109's to bring down American heavy bombers. Unfortunately Gerhard was killed in action before their idea could come to fruition. After Gerhard's death, Knoke set out to put their theories to the test...

March 22nd, 1943

"1424 hours: alert sounds.
Blast! Once again there is no time for our aircraft to be bombed-up. The Americans are coming in from over the sea. They have assembled as usual in the same map reference sector Dora-Dora off Great Yarmouth.
Seven minutes later we receive the orders to land. The enemy have turned about and are now heading back in a westerly direction. Well they return?
After landing, the aircraft are refuelled immediately, with the pilots standing by. Another alert must be anticipated. The intentions of the enemy are never obvious, as they are in the havit of altering course all the time.

I have a 250kg high-explosive bomb slung at top speed under my plane. But in the meantime we are ordered to take off, and I am not yet ready to go.

"Flight Sergeant Wenneckers is to take over command." I have the word passed down the line of aircraft.
Wenneckers Waves his hand. He has understood, and rolls down the runway. The others follow. The Staffel leaves the field in close formation.
Sweating mechanics work feverishly under the belly of my Gustav. I remain strapped to my seat, fuming with impatience.
"come on, come on; hurry, hurry!"
The staffel disappears, climbing in the direction of the sea. The Yanks have crossed the coast of Holland.
"Ready!"
My weighted plane rumbles awkwardly down to the far end of the runway. With the bomb I cannot take off downwind.
Turning at the perimeter of the field, my aircraft suddenly lists heavily to port.

A tire has burst.

I fire off a red signal flare. My men over at the flight dispersal point have understood. Twenty or thirty of them pile into a truck, which comes racing over to me. The left wing is lifted up on powerful backs, and the wheel is changed in a matter of seconds, with the engine still running.
"All clear!" They scatter. I open the throttle, start rolling with gathering speed, and then the crate again begins to list to port. I manage to pull it off the ground, however, after a run of some 600 feet, and clear the roof of #2 Hangar by a few inches.
I climb at full throttle up into the cloudless sky, heading out to sea. Overhead are the vapor trails left by our own aircraft and the Yanks. They are already engaged in combat.

22,000 feet: my plane reacts sluggishly under the infernally heavy load. It climbs wearily up to 30,000 feet, taking 25 minutes to do so.
The Yanks have bombed Wilhelmshaven, as I can tell from the smoke and fires below. They are over Heligoland on the return flight now.
I edge forward slowly until I am over the tip of the enemy formation, which consists entirely of Fortresses. For several minutes I am under fire from below, while I take a very rough sort of aim on my target, weaving and dipping each wing-tip alternately in order to see the formation below. Two or three holes appear in my left wing.

I fuse the bomb, take final aim, and press the release button on my stick. My bomb goes hurtling down, I watch it fall, and bank steeply as I break away.

Then it explodes, exactly in the center of a row of Fortresses. A wing breaks off one of them, and two others plunge away in alarm.
Twenty miles west of Heligoland my third heavy bomber crashes into the sea. There is no sign of fire. It is followed by the torn wing fluttering down like an autumn leaf.
The bomb has registered a hit. Not only on the Fortresses, but also, it seems, on our own higher brass.

Immediately after landing I am ordered to report to the Geschwaderkommodore. He himself was in the air at the time, and observed the crash of the Fortress.
"Good Lord, Knoke, you must do that again with your whole Staffel!"
"That is my intention, sir."
"Do you believe that it will work?"
I am not too certain. "Today could have just been a fluke, sir; but perhaps we can bring down some more of the heavy babies this way"
Then Colonel Henschel telephones. "I am delighted, my dear Knoke. That was a magnificent show. Must congratulate you." He bleats away happily and sounds quite worked up. I hope his monocle will not fall into his cup of cocoa in the excitement.
The North Sea coastal area of Germany must have its little sensation!

Least fuss is made in the Staffel. I find all this excitement over bringing down one single bomber rather absurd. Firstly, anybody could have dropped the bomb. Secondly, the original idea was not mine, but Dieter's. Thirdly, I have eight holes in my own plane where it was hit.

During the night I am awakened by the telephone ringing at my bedside. It is the station switchboard.

"sir, there is a top-priority call from you from the OKL"
"What! For me?"
A Major is at the other end, on the Staff of Reichsmarschall Goering. "You brought down an enemy aircraft today by bombing it, did you not?"
"Yes sir"
I am asked for complete details: What type of bomb? What kind of fuse? How exactly had I carried out the attack? And just what had been the result?
"Who issued the order for this bombing operation?"
"No one, sir, I acted on my own initiative."
There is a silence. For the first time it occurs to me that I was never authorized to lay so much as an egg on the head of the wretched Yank, and so they might consider that I had acted in an exceedingly high-handed manner.
Then the Major comes back on the line:
"I am putting you through to the Reichsmarschall."
This is the shock of my life!
I lie rigid, stiffening in bed to a horizontal position of attention, to report: "Leutnant Knoke here, Staffelkapitaen of 5./JG11"
" I am delighted over the initiative you have displayed. I want personally to express to you my particular appreciation."
And that is that.

So there we have a full-fledged Prussian Leutnant in the Luftwaffe talking to his Commander-in-Chief while lying in bed wearing nothing but a pajama jacket. Incredible! If the Old Man only knew! I am not even wearing the trousers: the tight elastic irritates me. I cannot help laughing at the thought as I turn over again."


Heinz Knocke and 5./JG11 June 1943.