Author Topic: Everything with 20mm  (Read 1798 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 06:51:19 PM »
Actually I think the problem is a .50 bullet being able to pass through most parts of an aircraft with zero chance of hitting a fluid line, ammo belt, control cable, etc, and thus doing nothing *unless* enough of it`s fellows hit the same bit to do gross structural damage.
Sounds like you want Hitech to make the AN\M2 gamey to work in an ACM environment which historically didn't happen as the rule to which the gun platform was designed to.

In our game you are being ACM defeated by not enough time on target to utilize the AN\M2's strength. Would you complain like this flying the C.202 or I16 Type27? Even with them you are constrained by not enough time on target during our ACM dancing with the stars ridiculousness. Or haven't you noticed most of the muppets historically fly cannon armed fighters even though they make sure to let everyone know about their ACM prowess in everything.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline save

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 07:26:09 PM »
if you read German pilot reports, their planes where shot by many bullets without causing structural failures, the reports talk about hit engines, radiators, and sometimes pilot wounds, causing them to bail or ditch.

190s had fuel under pilot and only TA152's had wing tanks of the common enemy.

I find myself getting about same number of kills in an f4u as in a 109, but many of them are late kills in the f4u, causing first major damage to the enemy.
I find the 51b specially hard to get kills in, due to high closure rate on enemy.





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Offline bustr

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 07:37:54 PM »
When we loose ailerons, rudder and elevators. Isn't that Hitech taking an easier approach to the outcome of shot up control cables? And our fuel, radiator and oil hits. Just generic one shot shopping for all fluids. And pilot wounds\death. A catch all for all of the minutia of possible outcomes from rounds passing through the cockpit. And loosing outer wing panels in fighters. A lot like the FW on gun camera when you see the 20mm or 30mm magazine take an M8 API hit. I would like to see the real world results of that. The uncontrollable violent tumbling spin in response to the magazine's mass PETN and hexogen content going off showcased online in AAF gun cam films.

So what is it you want Hitech to change about the AN\M2 M8 API physics and odds of getting any concentration of rounds on target during our sub 400 yard dance-a-thon snap shot windows?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Blinder

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 08:12:09 PM »
I think Rick Astley would like to weigh in on this issue.

Fighter pilots win glory .... Bomber pilots win wars.



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Offline BnZs

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2014, 01:55:14 AM »
When we loose ailerons, rudder and elevators. Isn't that Hitech taking an easier approach to the outcome of shot up control cables?
 

Currently we lose those control surfaces when X weight of rounds needed to knock them off hit *directly* on said control surfaces.* But control cables would actually represent more areas on the plane that could be hit and result in jammed/disabled controls, potentially with only a round or three. Ditto for the fluid lines and other goodies inside an airplane. Currently there are large areas of the plane which are essentially "hollow" and which simply drilling holes through does nothing until you put in enough weight of fire to reach the gross structural limit and make the part fall off completely.

This modeling is arguably disadvantageous for a gun package firing a smaller round but making a larger number of holes versus a gun package tossing bigger rounds in lesser numbers.

For instance, if you compare a 6x.50s to two Hispanos, both packages are putting out roughly the same amount of damage per second. However, the .50s are making MANY more holes than the Hispanos, usually over a wider area. Each Hispano round is roughly as destructive as three .50 rounds. By definition, each Hispano round is putting its full weight of damage on a single part. Let's say an aileron gets hit. A  Hispano ping or two can and does make the aileron go away. Three to six .50 pings to the aileron potentially does the same thing. However, it is much more likely that some of these .50 rounds will hit somewhere besides the aileron, say the wing. Currently there is ZERO chance of these widespread holes on the aileron and wing inflicting any disability whatsoever on the enemy airplane. You either get in enough weight of fire to knock off an aileron and/or outboard wing portion or you get nothing. But more complex damage modeling would represent some chance that this larger number of holes spread over a greater area would pierce something at least somewhat debilitating. Make sense?

A comparison can be made to shotguns and bird hunting. If shot had to either hit the heart or literally tear a wing off to bring down that bird, shotguns might not be very good bird-hunting weapons at all. If that were the case folks might have better results using .22 rifles. But because birds are actually chock-full of structures and organs vulnerable to pellet hits,  it is a virtual certainty that accurate fire at reasonable range will hit some of these structures with pellets and bring down the bird.  Thus shot guns are good bird-hunting weapons, far better than rifles for small moving targets at close ranges.
 The other consideration is using shot large enough to have adequate penetration for the size of bird you are hunting at the ranges you are firing. As long as you have adequate penetration, you are better off having more smaller shot to make more holes with, right? Well, at typical combat shooting ranges .50s have more than enough penetration to get the job done, it is just the "birds" they are shooting at have such large areas where punching holes will do absolutely nothing.


"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Arlo

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2014, 01:58:09 AM »
While we may understand the real life ramifications, how many of us can truly appreciate the coding involved?

Offline BnZs

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2014, 02:02:18 AM »
While we may understand the real life ramifications, how many of us can truly appreciate the coding involved?

Right, I was thinking about saying something about that in my post. Desirable, but may not be practical.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline jeffdn

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2014, 08:37:49 AM »
Right, I was thinking about saying something about that in my post. Desirable, but may not be practical.

I think that you may find that were this implemented as you describe, there would be an incredibly high number of frustrating incidents of airplane incapacitation. Imagine if the oft-encountered but easily avoided head-on attack by a P-51D or other American AN/M2-equipped bird, which generally results in only a couple pings, if any, could sever your control cables. It already sucks when the errant hit gives you a pilot wound or radiator damage, but at least you can fly back to base after those. Lose your elevator cables? May as well bail.

Offline Saxman

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2014, 08:46:01 AM »
I think that you may find that were this implemented as you describe, there would be an incredibly high number of frustrating incidents of airplane incapacitation. Imagine if the oft-encountered but easily avoided head-on attack by a P-51D or other American AN/M2-equipped bird, which generally results in only a couple pings, if any, could sever your control cables. It already sucks when the errant hit gives you a pilot wound or radiator damage, but at least you can fly back to base after those. Lose your elevator cables? May as well bail.

There's ALREADY an incredibly high number of frustrating incidents of airplane incapacitation. Magic BBs that manage to knock out fuel and/or oil in one hit. Losing both elevators with a fluke snapshot. Max range ack round that headshots your pilot.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2014, 09:23:42 AM »
But all the head-ons by Spitfires, 190s and other cannon birds don't concern you in the least?  :rolleyes:

Your argument is a poor one because our paradigm in AHII is trying to model things as closely as possible. If we don't want the possibility of a single BB ending our sorties then pilot wounds/kills or radiator holes shouldn't be modeled at all. But would you really want to put a cluster of rounds straight into a plane's canopy only to watch it fly off without the slightest debilitation?

Nope, the whole idea is to model the damage as realistically as practical, no matter where it leads. My theory is that a more realistic damage model with more bits to destroy would raise the efficacy of multiple .50 cals and their shotgun-like effect in the game. In WWII that approach was a proven success for attacking fighters, but if one went only by this game one would think the American forces were completely brain-dead for relying on banks of .50s instead adding smaller numbers of 20MM cannon.



I think that you may find that were this implemented as you describe, there would be an incredibly high number of frustrating incidents of airplane incapacitation. Imagine if the oft-encountered but easily avoided head-on attack by a P-51D or other American AN/M2-equipped bird, which generally results in only a couple pings, if any, could sever your control cables. It already sucks when the errant hit gives you a pilot wound or radiator damage, but at least you can fly back to base after those. Lose your elevator cables? May as well bail.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 09:31:03 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Saxman

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2014, 10:21:45 AM »
Agreed fully with BnZs. So let's add stuff like:

Control lines
Fuel lines
Oil lines
Oil coolers
Hydraulics

That will make a fairly big difference without even considering going to incremental airfoil/control surface damage.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2014, 10:25:49 AM »
It would definitely be a plus. Sounds a bit daunting though. We'll see what happens.

Agreed fully with BnZs. So let's add stuff like:

Control lines
Fuel lines
Oil lines
Oil coolers
Hydraulics

That will make a fairly big difference without even considering going to incremental airfoil/control surface damage.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline bustr

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2014, 03:51:06 PM »
So the damage model in the WWI arena has not been implemented in the MA yet?

It is a 100% BB driven, poke holes in things model.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Megalodon

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2014, 12:06:51 AM »
Even planes would be lacking.  If everything had four .50s the heavy fighters would be useless, the BnZers weakened in comparison to the turners.

 yes you would actually need some fighting skill  :aok
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Offline Debrody

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Re: Everything with 20mm
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2014, 12:08:23 AM »
yes you would actually need some fighting skill  :aok
another constructive comment from the mighty one.  :aok
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