Author Topic: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35  (Read 502 times)

Offline -ammo-

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5124
Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« on: March 28, 2014, 07:10:56 AM »
I thought was an interesting article and even more interesting analysis.  For sure,  this doesn't give US allies in east Asia a warm fuzzy.

China Finds Fastest Way to Develop a Stealth Fighter: Steal it.
 
Article from Lignet.com
 
Summary
CYBER WAR

Seven years ago, stealth technology allowed the U.S. Air Force to dominate all comers while Chinese pilots often refused to fly at night or in bad weather. Today, a next-generation Chinese stealth fighter jet to rival America's best is undergoing flight tests. In a few years, Chinese fighter-bombers invisible to radar will dominate the skies of East Asia.
China has gained that ground not by hard-earned feats of engineering but by stealing secrets through cyber-espionage. The Pentagon recently admitted that Chinese cyber spies in 2007 stole classified design data from the new F-35 Lightning II, pilfered plans that Beijing then transferred to its own stealth fighter program.

Background

China conducted a major cyber-spying operation on the United States and its allies in 2007 to steal secrets from the F-35 Lightning II program, Washington Free Beacon Senior Editor Bill Gertz reported last week. The stolen information bounced around various Chinese military agencies and defense firms and became integrated into the Chengdu J-20, the People’s Liberation Army fifth-generation jet fighter.

The pilfered technology has contributed substantially to the current J-20 design, according to Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center. The Chinese stealth airplane went swiftly from a demo version in 2011 to a flying prototype in several phases over the past two years.

The Chinese Communist Party announced on Jan. 20 that the J-20’s technological innovations were derived from the F-35. The Pentagon Defense Science Board confirmed the cyber theft, according to the Free Beacon.

The J-20’s capabilities caught up to the F-35 with astonishing speed. The J-20 now mounts the latest electro-optical targeting system under its nose, similar to the F-35’s configuration, which gives Chinese pilots a better field of view. The J-20 has enhanced features on its tail and vertical fin to reduce its radar signature. The newer twin engines provide better thrust and speed. The J-20 also has a larger weapons payload than the F-35 that allows it to carry heavy anti-ship missiles.

The Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has been delayed for years and is now 70 percent over budget, according to a report released this month by the Government Accountability Office (GAO). At a lifecycle cost of $400 billion, the F-35 is the “most costly and ambitious acquisition program ever,” the GAO report said.

The Marine Corps is expecting delivery of the fighter by July 2015, but the Air Force and Navy won’t get it until 2016 and 2018.

It is not clear how the Chinese stole the data in 2007. The breach could have come from Lockheed Martin, one of its many suppliers or from one of the U.S. allies who have ordered the Joint Strike Fighter.

In another F-35 embarrassment for the Pentagon, Reuters reported in January that two of the fighter’s subcontractors, Northrop Grumman and Honeywell International, used magnets made in China for the plane’s radar, landing gear and other systems. U.S. law prohibits parts made with specialty metals from other countries to be used in military hardware. Since the magnets reportedly cost only $2 each, the F-35 program was granted a waiver from the law that allowed it to avoid another delay and keep it “on track,” according to Reuters.

In March, Reuters reported that “raw materials such as titanium from China” were used in the new Raytheon Standard Missile-3 IIA ballistic missile interceptor. The GAO said Chinese magnets were also used in some F-16 fighters and in Boeing’s B-1B bomber.


Analysis

The loss of secret F-35 technology and apparent shortcuts U.S. defense contractors took with Chinese materials are equally unfortunate developments. The GAO report portrays Pentagon acquisition officials as cavalier about the Chinese components built into the F-35, F-16 and B-1B.

It would take about $11 million and 25,000 man-hours to remove these magnets from the F-35s and replace them with American-made parts, so the Pentagon is shrugging its shoulders even as it insists it will avoid using Chinese parts in the future.

The remedy for this is simple: Enforce compliance with the law. Regulations requiring American-made aerospace components for U.S. weapons have been on the books since 1973. This covers all parts, ranging from large panels to the smallest bolts and fasteners. Another 2006 law bans specialty metals such as titanium that are purchased overseas. The Pentagon, to its credit, is investigating whether contractors “willfully and knowingly” violated statutes to obtain Chinese raw materials for the three airplanes in question.

However, this does not mitigate the risk of using parts made with foreign components. The F-35’s airframe or other key pieces could fail. The request that these parts be granted waivers rings hollow when one considers the dangers defective moving parts could pose in a fighter plane.

Cyber theft is another security disappointment for the U.S. military. The Chinese stole billions of dollars and years of painstaking research from the F-35 program. It is too late to reverse the damage, but it is still beneficial to examine what might have caused the breach, in order to prevent future espionage losses.

The Washington Free Beacon reported that a shadowy Chinese military organization in Chengdu province called the Technical Reconnaissance Bureau was behind the hacking. This unit likely operates under the umbrella of the PLA’s Integrated Network Electronic Warfare.

The Chinese probably used a virus or worm to take control of computer operating systems used for the F-35 program. These Trojans can be inserted into a network, server, or device to hijack a single work station or thousands of personal computers in a network. Attacks of this nature can be as simple as a “spear-phishing” email with an infected link that takes control of a hard drive.

One likely scenario would be a “watering hole” attack. This happens when a user goes to an independent website outside of the firm’s server (the watering hole) that is infected by malicious code. Once the browser links to the website, the malware infects that user’s computer and can steal classified F-35 files stored on a hard drive. A “bot” then sends those secrets to a Chinese computer owned by the cyber spies.

The Chinese are known for using this intrusion to great effect. Any employee working on the F-35 program from a government or a private firm’s computer could have been the victim of a watering hole attack and unknowingly leaked a treasure trove of technical design documents to the Chinese.

One thing defense firms or government agencies can do is to encourage their employees to visit only approved websites on the company intranet to avoid crossing over the firewall to browse sites that may have malware.

Of course, how the Chinese stole F-35 secrets is now water under the bridge. The United States faces the depressing reality of not having the same type of air superiority it once enjoyed with the advent of its stealth fighter jets such as the F-117 Nighthawk and the F-22 Raptor.

Parity in the skies between an American stealth jet and a similar Chinese airplane can be overcome by superior pilots using better tactics and maneuvers. But if the J-20 is as good as intelligence analysts think it is, then China enjoys a strategic air advantage over its neighbors -- a worrisome security development in the Far East.

A mass-produced, stealthy fighter-bomber would enable the Chinese air force to evade enemy radar, attack an adversary and eliminate their command and control nodes, anti-aircraft missile sites and radar installations. This would allow China to make a larger follow-on attack from the air that could be devastating – in large part because of the cyber espionage that took place seven years ago.



 
 
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline wpeters

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1647
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 09:55:28 AM »
Ouch that hurts
LtCondor
          The Damned
Fighter pilots are either high, or in the process of getting high.🙊
The difference between Dweebs and non dweebs... Dweebs have kills

Offline smoe

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 941
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 10:21:46 AM »
I worked on a government project a while back. The best thing about it was the senior design engineers had Chinese and Russian accents. Chances are these engineers probably had US citizenship, but obviously not born in the US.

Online Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 11:00:01 AM »
The Soviet Union did a lot of stealing of technology.  In their case, the economic system was so horrible that they couldn't capitalize on it much.

China (post freeing up of the economy) is a different story.  They can steal things and capitalize on them.  In this case, the theft is probably a savings of a couple $billion in investment and 10 years of time.

Offline Hoplite

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 427
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 11:58:21 AM »
Been around this stuff for a long time now.  Maybe I'm wrong but this all seems a bit fishy.   

All warfare is based on deception, so a thought to ponder:  

What if the US let China get the data?

It wouldn't be the first time in history bogus information was used to manipulate a potential opponent.  What if the "stealth" technology China grabbed is indeed "stealthly", but the US has the ability to detect planes using techniques or technologies that have yet to be unveiled?

Likely Occam's Razor applies here, but I guess time will tell...

Offline Shifty

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9377
      • 307th FS
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 12:01:57 PM »
Is anybody surprised by this. Every country wants to have the best military possible. Go back to caveman days and the first caveman that got jabbed with a sharp stick from and enemy never left home with a dull one after that.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline -ammo-

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5124
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2014, 12:04:45 PM »
I am not surprised the Chinese were able to steal the data - we all have read of their expertise in cyber warfare.

I am surprised in this person's analysis that the J-20's capabilities will be comparable to US and Western Allies AC.

Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Online Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2014, 02:03:57 PM »
Been around this stuff for a long time now.  Maybe I'm wrong but this all seems a bit fishy.  

All warfare is based on deception, so a thought to ponder:  

What if the US let China get the data?

It wouldn't be the first time in history bogus information was used to manipulate a potential opponent.  What if the "stealth" technology China grabbed is indeed "stealthly", but the US has the ability to detect planes using techniques or technologies that have yet to be unveiled?

Likely Occam's Razor applies here, but I guess time will tell...

That would be nice, but it likely is not information we wanted them to have.

The book "The Sword and the Shield", by Andrew and Mitrokhin, is a great book on stuff like this.  It covers Soviet espionage up to about 1990, when Vasili Mitrokhin defected to the UK.  He was the head archivist for the KGB, and collected information from the archive for over 12 years prior to defecting and giving the information to the west.  It was an enormous haul of information.  The only problem with the book is it is so thorough and full of fine-grained detail that reading the information after a while becomes like drinking from a firehose.  But is amazing information.

One of the many things that was amazing is the level of Soviet communist penetration of the US government in WWII.  The US vice president, Henry Wallace, said that (in the event Roosevelt had died a few months earlier than he did) he intended to make Laurence Duggan the Secretary of State and Harry Dexter White the Secretary of the Treasury.  Both Duggan and White were Soviet agents.

Anyway, back to the case at hand, the Soviets had, as a large part of the KGB, the Scientific and Technological Intelligence Directorate ("S&T").  It's job was to steal scientific and technology knowledge from western countries.  They stole a lot of stuff (famously all of the atomic bomb info thanks to communists in the Manhattan Project, but also a huge amount of other stuff -- designs for radar, radio, aircraft, synthetic rubber processes, jet engines, submarines, computers, semiconductor fabrication, etc.).  A tiny amount of that was information leaked to the Soviets on purpose.  And of that tiny amount, it was usually to catch people in the spy network or to insert double agents into the network, not to mislead the Soviets into using a Trojan horse.  In one instance, the famously paranoid Soviets refused to use technology they had stolen (computer designs from a mainframe manufacturer, I forget which one) because it had been so easy to steal, they suspected it was leaked on purpose with nefarious intent (which was false).
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 02:06:05 PM by Brooke »

Offline Perrine

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 654
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2014, 03:11:08 PM »
I'm sure China can copy whatever... but they don't know (or even care) how to put the last 10%/20% final, finishing touches to make equal or superior copy. 
Chinese mentality and their work ethic simply won't allow it. 

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2014, 03:25:08 PM »
The story sounds made up or stretched reality quite a bit. Reality is not as simple as "steal some E-documents and build a 5th generation fighter". It is clear that someone is pushing to transfer more of the production back into the US, as well as more investment/production in the F-35 (or similar projects) to counter the Chinese "parity".

Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Online Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 03:26:16 PM »
Maybe, but keep in mind that China makes a lot of the world's stuff, including things considered higher-end, sophisticated tech (iPhones, for example).

People felt the same way about Japan -- cheap stuff (in both price and quality).  Then, Japan upped the quality part of it to beat the US at one point.

I don't think that we can rest safely on the idea that China can't make high-quality, sophisticated items.

Offline Megalodon

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2272
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 04:05:55 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Perrine

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 654
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 04:36:02 PM »
Maybe, but keep in mind that China makes a lot of the world's stuff, including things considered higher-end, sophisticated tech (iPhones, for example).

That's because things considered higher-end, sophisticated tech stuff is  western & Japanese managed. 
Leave them at their own device and they are helpless.

Quote
People felt the same way about Japan -- cheap stuff (in both price and quality).  Then, Japan upped the quality part of it to beat the US at one point.

Unlike Japan Inc who worked their way up to the quality chain (with some helpful tips from a single American industrialist... true story) in true "monozukuri" fashion, China will just _buy their way_ up to the quality chain.  China-run firms will never be like Japan Inc because of their mentality... they don't or don't even bother to scrutinize the tiniest of details, and Chinese are cut-throat, hardcore & one-dimentional capitalists... they want it NOW with fat margins.   Their quest for NOW NOW NOW mentality and fat margins glaringly shows up in their engineering projects, and goods (tainted baby milk, anyone?).  They'll gladly take shortcuts in order to rake in good margins.


Quote
I don't think that we can rest safely on the idea that China can't make high-quality, sophisticated items.

They can, but only ~75% as good as the genuine article. 
US is real good at making hi-tech stuff... but in danger of becoming like NZGermans when it comes to weaponry... Too good but too few to make any difference. 

Offline Zoney

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6503
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2014, 05:12:21 PM »
Currently, China is producing Millions of cheap motorcycles and scooters and selling them in the U.S.A.

I've never seen such appalling quality, engineering and workmanship.  The Motorcycle Dealer I work at will no longer take these bikes as trade or work on them for any reason for the past 4 years now.  Parts that are glued together, not bodywork, engine parts, impossible to service.  Engine cases with such poor materials quality that they "bleed" oil through the open pores.  Wheels without wheel bearings, just a shaft and collar with some grease smeared on it.

I have also observed that there aren't any real 'brand names" being developed.  One manufacturer goes out of business and reappears as a "new" business every 6 months.

Warranty?  What's that.

I sell Honda's.  I have a competitor 1/2 a mile away that carries about 10 different "brands" of Chinese scooters.  I constantly have to tell customers that what he is selling is not a Honda, like he told you, it doesn't use Honda parts like he told you, and no, Honda dealers will not service your bike like he told you.

They make their stuff look pretty good from 10 feet away.   Ohhhhhh "shiny"

Here is my real problem with them.  If a new rider goes in and buys one of the Chinese bikes and it's wore out in 2 weeks, done, gone, not repairable....many of those riders are now done with motorcycling because of that experience and they never get the Joy of riding that I have.

Now lets move that ethic to a fighter, would you want to fly in it?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 05:14:50 PM by Zoney »
Wag more, bark less.

Offline RTR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2915
Re: Cyber War: the J-20 and the F-35
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 05:36:11 PM »
I don't see the problem. Let them build a complete copy of the F35.

As it is now, it can't run, can't fight and can't hide. It's basically an airborne weapons platform that would require real fighter cover in a full blown modern conflict.

We have put too much $$ into it already.

RTR
The Damned