Avoiding the HO

[Wiley]

I've been thinking about it for a while, and a thread in GD got me thinking it might be an opportune moment to ask the question in here.

I have my general schtick I use when a guy points his nose at me from way out looking to shoot me.  I put him at about 10 o'clock, nose down, and turn into him as he tries to take the shot or blows through not pulling the trigger.  Generally speaking, assuming we're both high-E, what's the best way to optimize taking advantage of his attempted HO?  Do you get him to miss by as little as possible on the way in, or go wider to ensure he misses?  Is the smart move to conserve E and reset, or should you pull as hard as you can to get to his six?  If it's situational, what parameters change the response?

I guess I'm looking to optimize how I go about it.  I practically never get hit on the way in, but I am looking for tips for myself and the peanut gallery on how to turn an attempted HO to maximum advantage.

Wiley.

[Triton28]

Arlo will be along shortly and teach everyone how to avoid HO shots.   

[BuckShot]

The only times I get killed by a head on shots are when I commit to the HO also. I never get killed by a ho I avoid. All I do is move around a little just outside 1k.

I don't consider a ho at the to of a loop to be the typical setup ho we're talking about here.

[Wiley]

Arlo will be along shortly and teach everyone how to avoid HO shots.   

The avoidance is easy.  A lot of people say "The guy who tries for the HO on initial merge is at a disadvantage."  I want to know how to maximally exploit the situation.

The only times I get killed by a head on shots are when I commit to the HO also. I never get killed by a ho I avoid. All I do is move around a little just outside 1k.

I don't consider a ho at the to of a loop to be the typical setup ho we're talking about here.

Yeah, once you're into the turning aspect of things, it's a different beast.  As far as I'm concerned, if you're maneuvering hard with the guy and he gets guns on you, the orientation of your plane is irrelevant.  The fact that he can get guns on you means you lost.

Wiley.

[Arlo]

Arlo will be along shortly and teach everyone how to avoid HO shots.  

Ok.



The 109 driver sees the Hurri and drives in for the HO kill



The Hurri slips to the side and drops a bit











2nd attempt .... 1 minute later

[Muzzy]

Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.

[Wiley]

Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.

To me that sounds like he's flying to where you're going to be, anticipating what you're going to do.  It's important to give him a difficult problem to solve determining where you're going to be.  I quite often either start with a gentle pull with my lift vector to either side of the bandit and either pull tighter as he gets near gun range, or start pulling fairly hard and then slacking it off to go straighter.  The idea is to not give him a consistent arc to aim at to mess up his anticipation of your movement.

Sometimes, you're still going to get tagged just because he either guessed right or missed what he thought you were going to do, but that's the way things go sometimes.

Wiley.

[Debrody]

Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.

109K
tater gun
lob like 10 rounds into his direction, you might die too, but after losing 2-3 tempons in a row, he wont try that any more.

[bozon]

Here's something I've run into trouble with. Normally avoiding a HO shot is pretty simple for me. On occasion, however, I find when I open up my usual amount of separation the con will nail me with a slightly off-angle shot as I go by. Tempests (*cough*2cmex*cough*) are especially good at this, and I have replicated the results myself while flying that bird. The attacker simply drops the nose and gets the shot. I still haven't figured out how to avoid this, and although it's not a major problem, it is enough of an annoyance *coughgagcmexcough* that I'd like to try and remedy it.

do not pass directly below his nose. always have a little off side component. This way, to get the shot he has to move in more than one axis simultaneously which makes aiming much more difficult. The second thing to do is to fly a curved path so it is harder to extrapolate the future gun solution.

Regarding a previous question, what puts him is a disadvantage is that by committing to the HO he is giving up lead turning you. His only option is to steam ahead and build a good separation before trying anything.

[Randy1]

HO claims is often too used as an excuse for a lost merge and kill. 

[MrKrabs]

Separation.... Separation... Separation...

at least 800 vertically and 800 horizontally - why do people want to go dead-on?

More separation more options...

[Wiley]

Separation.... Separation... Separation...

at least 800 vertically and 800 horizontally - why do people want to go dead-on?

More separation more options...

Now that's interesting.  When I avoid the HO, we probably pass within 4-500 yards of each other, depending on what he does.  When I'm merging with someone, I tend to want to get close.  My general reasoning is, I don't want to give him too much room to turn to me to get guns on.  What options does the wide separation give you?

Wiley.

[MrKrabs]

2 things...

1) It will tell me what the enemy plane wants to do on the merge and plenty of time to respond to it. And more importantly it gives me a better idea of their energy state.

2) Gives you further options than a close direct merge. If you are dead head-on it can tend to be who has the most energy or who plays the dumbest! But a separated merge will openly tell you whether you have to be looking for a overshoot right away or beat them out with energy...



The more direct you are, the harder it can become to gauge energy states, the more breathing room you can observe the plane more closely and not fear the random snap shot.

You can pretty much have the enemy aircraft do all the maneuvering for you if they choose to commit to the fight while you let them come to you.

[The Fugitive]

Now that's interesting.  When I avoid the HO, we probably pass within 4-500 yards of each other, depending on what he does.  When I'm merging with someone, I tend to want to get close.  My general reasoning is, I don't want to give him too much room to turn to me to get guns on.  What options does the wide separation give you?

Wiley.

my opinion, for what its worth as I'm not a "Top Gun" by any means, is it's ok to be 400-500 yards of each other in a merge, but you had better be well off the 180 degree line of flight. By that I mean if you fly head on to the other plane you will be passing each other 180 degrees out.... he heading south, you heading north, 180 degrees. Being well off that 180 degrees means you should already be a third of the way through your first move and looking to see which way he is going.

Morph told me once that when you pass the 3-9 line of the other aircraft you had better have had made your first move or your already behind. That is where I see the "HOer" giving up any advantage. By going for the HO is is giving you the time and room to make the first move and get "ahead" in the fight.

The main disadvantage of being in that 400-500 range is you are in gun range and a good shot will kick the rudder and try to rake you as you pass, but again, if that is his first move he has given you the advantage again by not manuvering for a kill, but throwing it away for an "ify" shot.

[Big Rat]

The trick is offset and force their nose down for the shot.  Make them going for the shot put themselves in a bad position.  Eg. going nose down on an initial merge almost always gets you in a bad spot.  AS you pass the bandit coming downhill you should be merging verticle as he goes past.  This should fairly easily give you the bandits 6 as he'll be accelerating coming down hill and you can easily get your nose around quicker coming uphill and decellerating.  So you normally end up with a higher speed bandit below in a defensive position, with you in a slower speed but superior postion.  It's simple physics, the key is just getting them to commit nose low going for the shot.

 
BigRat