Midway...

[Changeup]

Agreed, changeup, and that affair with Branden has a kind of hilarious/tragic backstory. BTW, I like your Freudian here: Objectionist (it's actually Objectivist, but, as I say, point taken, if subliminally).

Mobile phone autocorrect, lol

[Changeup]

That wasn't my point.  My point was that "what is good for individuals is good for the group" is not a simpleton's view either as one theme from Rand's works or as one theme from free-market economics.  It has nothing to do with whether or not she used economics to explain her point of view.

And that is her philosophical downfall.  A logical fallacy.  What one person perceives as good for them may cost the group dearly.  There are a million examples non of which you actually need unless you'd like me to give examples of how government hand outs help the one but hurt the many.

[Midway]

And that is her philosophical downfall.  A logical fallacy.  What one person perceives as good for them may cost the group dearly.  There are a million examples non of which you actually need unless you'd like me to give examples of how government hand outs help the one but hurt the many.

There are several errors and incorrect premises in this statement of yours, but I'm not going to get into a discussion on it.  I'll just say you need to spend some time to more fully comprehend the underlying concepts.

Now, way more than nuff said about philosophy.




Getting back to the OP....

Click on the link.  The baby albatross is just sitting there enjoying the view.... waiting to get bigger and spend several years flying over the open oceans without ever touching foot on land.

[Changeup]

There are several errors and incorrect premises in this statement of yours, but I'm not going to get into a discussion on it.  I'll just say you need to spend some time to more fully comprehend the underlying concepts.

Now, way more than nuff said about philosophy.




Getting back to the OP....

Click on the link.  The baby albatross is just sitting there enjoying the view.... waiting to get bigger and spend several years flying over the open oceans without ever touching foot on land.

Please PM your complete and total understanding of her axioms, precepts and philosophies and we can debate this in private.  I await your PM.

[Midway]

Please PM your complete and total understanding of her axioms, precepts and philosophies and we can debate this in private.  I await your PM.

I have zero interest in debating this issue in public or private.  There is plenty of material you can read yourself on the web and in books.

Already way way more than nuff said.



This thread of ours is about the beauty and skill of the awesome Albatross.



Did I mention that they've lived for millions of years on our planet vs a few hundred thousand years for us?  Each Albatross living an average lifespan will log millions of miles of flight over huge areas of our planet.  

"Wandering Albatross can travel 500-600 miles in a single day, fly the equivalent of eighteen round trips to the moon and back in a lifetime, and maintain speeds higher than 127 km/h for more than eight hours, all, achieved through the distinct skill of dynamic soaring."


"I now belong to the higher cult of mortals, for I have seen the Albatross." -- Robert Cushman Murphy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=buuxFP--Ezo  


"Dynamic soaring offers incalculable lessons for the aeronautical community. Engineers at NASA are already designing a UAV based upon the Wandering Albatross able to stay aloft for months at a time. Dynamic soaring is truly a lesson in the unharnessed power of nature that humanity has yet to realize. Unlimited and omnipresent, the power of nature surrounds us, and humanity must learn to use it just as the Wandering Albatross and many others already have."

http://blogs.bu.edu/bioaerial2012/2012/11/17/flying-without-flapping/

[Changeup]

I have zero understanding and cannot debate you in public or private.  I just think I sound smart by being a Rand fanboi.  There is plenty of material you can read yourself on the web and in books because that's what I'll have to end up doing if I choose to debate you and I don't have time for that.

Fixed

[Midway]

Fixed

Can you not simply appreciate the skill and beauty before you?

Must you go off on a hijacking tangent where way, way, way more than nuffs already been said. 

Must I say it?

Must I?

Really???



Consider your way. 

[Triton28]

Hmm... I didn't know trolls got rusty.   

[PJ_Godzilla]

And that is her philosophical downfall.  A logical fallacy.  What one person perceives as good for them may cost the group dearly.  There are a million examples non of which you actually need unless you'd like me to give examples of how government hand outs help the one but hurt the many.

Consider the possibility that traditional forms of handout probably hurt both the one and the many. Where I find her weaker, however, is in the area of traditional market "failures" - consider the example of private use of public goods, for example, using a river as an effluent conveyance. This is probably the oldest example known to man. At the same time, for most things, the market works pretty well.

[Brooke]

And that is her philosophical downfall.  A logical fallacy.  What one person perceives as good for them may cost the group dearly.  There are a million examples non of which you actually need unless you'd like me to give examples of how government hand outs help the one but hurt the many.

What I said is not a logical fallacy.  Quite the contrary.  Note how I phrased it:  "what is good for individuals" not "what is good for one particular individual" or even "what is good for a small subset of individuals."  You are substituting a sample of one person (or at most a sample of a small number of people) for averages, which is a logical fallacy.

Give you examples of how government handouts help the one but hurt the many?  There are lots of those.  Examples include crony capitalism, handouts to insider friends, money for bridges to nowhere, handouts to Solyndra, sweetheart real estate deals for the connected using public money, paying a particular company exorbitant fees for unnecessary work, etc.

[Midway]

Teenage hairdos.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H9PQ6jt9us

[Changeup]

What I said is not a logical fallacy.  Quite the contrary.  Note how I phrased it:  "what is good for individuals" not "what is good for one particular individual" or even "what is good for a small subset of individuals."  You are substituting a sample of one person (or at most a sample of a small number of people) for averages, which is a logical fallacy.

Give you examples of how government handouts help the one but hurt the many?  There are lots of those.  Examples include crony capitalism, handouts to insider friends, money for bridges to nowhere, handouts to Solyndra, sweetheart real estate deals for the connected using public money, paying a particular company exorbitant fees for unnecessary work, etc.

While your examples elicit a wonderful emotional pause, those  examples are illegal.  Rand proposed nothing illegal.  I rest...

[PJ_Godzilla]

While your examples elicit a wonderful emotional pause, those  examples are illegal.  Rand proposed nothing illegal.  I rest...

Illegal? What are you talking about?

[Brooke]

While your examples elicit a wonderful emotional pause, those  examples are illegal.  Rand proposed nothing illegal.  I rest...

The examples I gave are all current examples, only one of which was prosecuted, the rest weren't, and all are well known.  They are disgusting, but apparently enough people think that they aren't (or shouldn't be) illegal, and so nothing has happened.

Regardless, what does any of this have to do with Ayn Rand?  I pointed out that the good of individuals leading to the good of the group is not a simpleton's view of either Rand's works or free markets.  None of these other things you are bringing up has anything bearing on that.

[Changeup]

While your examples elicit a wonderful emotional pause, those  examples are illegal.  Rand proposed nothing illegal.  I rest...

These...most are illegal and the balance are prosecutable ethics violations.  What I find funny about all of the righteous Randian talk is that for any of it to work as planned, people will have to stop doing bad things, lmao!  How much realism is in that probability? 

"Give you examples of how government handouts help the one but hurt the many?  There are lots of those.  Examples include crony capitalism, handouts to insider friends, money for bridges to nowhere, handouts to Solyndra, sweetheart real estate deals for the connected using public money, paying a particular company exorbitant fees for unnecessary work, etc."