Author Topic: Warthunder videos  (Read 1577 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2014, 12:01:41 PM »
Look guys, I re-upped my Aces account like a week ago

Excellent!  :aok

Please join us for the scenario in June, and please join me for "This Day in WWII:  Coral Sea" on May 18 (the anniversary).  :aok

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But I'm also not going to attempt to have an objective conversation with the internal cabinet of the People's Party of Aces High, and be told the urine streaming down my leg is rain.

As I am a staunch anti-communist and anti-socialist, can you at least think of me as being in the Free Republic of Aces High instead of the People's Party?  ;)

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NO icons may indeed by less realistic than real life. 

That's all I'm saying.

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1.  Auto enemy/friendly indicator (though crucial for a mixed plane set, unrealistic)  <--- Millions of man-hours spent worldwide on aircraft identification are on my side here.

In the same territory as range.  Not having it is harder than real life; having it is easier.  So, it's a judgement call on which to do.

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2.  Instant contrasting visual indicator from 6k removes any chance of surprise for all but a low 6 approach on someone simply not looking.  <--- mountains of historical accounts of aircraft bouncing/being bounced from the clouds, sun, above, below, behind are on my side here.

Even with 6k, in scenarios, you can find yourself bounced for the same reasons people got bounced unaware in real life:  they were busying doing something other than looking at the direction the plane is coming in.  It has happened to me in many scenarios.  Yes, one can debate on what the range should be for icons to show up to be maximally realistic.

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3.  Instant aircraft identification, down to the exact model at close range <--- everyone is instantly Chuck Yeager now when it comes to knowing what they are up against.

In same category as #1.

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4.  Continuously computed digital ranging <--- Everyone gets Firefox avionics now.

See #1.

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Don't take a steaming dump on WT's simulation mode all the same...

I don't know much about WT.  I am only responding to discussion about what is realistic and what isn't.

Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 12:08:45 PM »
In my experience flying at Air Combat USA, where they use camo-painted planes against ground cover, yes, it is simple in real life.

My opinion is based on reading, r/l pilot accounts, and watching planes out of planes I have not been the pilot of.  Clearly, I must cede the experience battle here.   :salute

Except in the case of coming out of the sun, that typically happened because they weren't looking at the plane as it came in close enough to attack, not because they were looking at it but didn't see it.  That happens occasionally to people in Aces High, too, when people don't have dot radar, such as in scenarios.
 

I agree, but I also believe that a more realistic approach would be a simple highlight, rather than a billboard many, many times larger and more informative.  (Stressing again, that I am speaking on what is more realistic, not what is right for the MA).  Pilots had to be far more perceptive to stay alive, and eagle-eyed wingmen were worth their weight in gold.

In addition to some dogfights against camouflaged aircraft, I had a course on vision, using the book "Vision: A Computational Investigation into the Human Representation and Processing of Visual Information," by David Marr.  That was back in the early 1990's, so I can't claim to remember every detail, but there are at least a couple of significant aspects that stand out for me.

One is seeing aircraft at long distance.  That's where you can miss planes even when you look at them.  That's when there shouldn't be icons.  The other is seeing them at shorter distance.  That's where, in real life, you don't have much trouble seeing them.  It's because your eye has excellent resolution, excellent ability to differentiate colors, even slightly different shades of colors or textures, and excellent ability for motion of an object to make it stand out for you (i.e., an aircraft on your 6 is not like a truck parked and unmoving in among bushes).  These aspects are only partially replicated in a computer-monitor environment.  In a game, there is less resolution, differential shading, differential luminosity, and differential texture on the plane and its background compared to viewed motion in real life, and very significantly the game environment has the ability to have camo that much-more-closely matches a background color, luminosity, texture, etc., which never happens in real life.

To compensate for those effects in a game environment, at some closer-in range, you need to enhance the visibility of the camouflaged object.  One way of doing this is using icons.  There are other ways, but icons are OK.  If you do nothing, you are making it much, much harder to see the aircraft than a person has in real life, and so it is less realistic to do nothing.

I agree, but again I do not think there is any legitimate foundation to the argument that "doing nothing" (i.e., no icons) is LESS realistic than what we have in the MA.  (Stressing, again, that gameplay trumps realism in some cases.)

As for range, that also presents a lot of difference between real-life and the computer-monitor environment.  Without any range on your target, it is much harder to estimate range than in real life.  With range shown on an icon, it is easier.  So, you have a choice to make there, and people could debate which is more realistic, range shown or no range shown.

I think that I literally do.  ;)

I guess I should have clarified that I do not believe that you have a valid argument that MA Icons are MORE realistic than NO Icons... (see my awesomely rendered scale for scientific proof  :neener: )

Thank you.  I also appreciate that comments here (even if I disagree with them) are usually in the spirit of suggestions for the better.

Honestly, I am honored that you and several others in this thread have taken the time to respond.  I believe I am correct, but am more than willing to listen... and you've forgotten more about Air Combat and flying in general that I will probably ever know.

To me, these:

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

look painted whereas these:

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
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(Image removed from quote.)

do not.


Gameplay trumps graphics, and in some cases in WT (over ack) it detracts from the dogfight... while the shaking of the cockpit, and blasts everywhere obscuring vision are (to ME at least) more realistic, they make the difficulty of acquiring targets that much harder.  Aces is far more pure and uncluttered.  Also, that last pic... that ship gunner must have been awesome!   :salute


(To clear up any other misconceptions some may have over my feelings on this game or WT, please see this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,361504.msg4804413.html#msg4804413)

« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 12:11:52 PM by tunnelrat »
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Offline Zoney

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2014, 12:12:18 PM »
Tunnellrat.

My eyesight is not very good, and slowly getting worse.  Yes, the Icon's mean I can ID aircraft like Chuck Yeager.
I need the icons.  Without them, because of my eyesight, I would be at a huge disadvantage against those with good eyesight.  The icon's therefore even the playing field.  I could never pass an eye test to be a real WW2 fighter pilot.  I want to play a game where I get to pretend I have good enough eyesight to have been a Luftwaffe pilot.  Please don't take the Icon's away.  I love this game.  I love pretending to be a Luftwaffe Pilot with Stampf in JG11.  Please don't take that away from me.

Thank you.
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 12:22:59 PM »
Tunnellrat.

My eyesight is not very good, and slowly getting worse.  Yes, the Icon's mean I can ID aircraft like Chuck Yeager.
I need the icons.  Without them, because of my eyesight, I would be at a huge disadvantage against those with good eyesight.  The icon's therefore even the playing field.  I could never pass an eye test to be a real WW2 fighter pilot.  I want to play a game where I get to pretend I have good enough eyesight to have been a Luftwaffe pilot.  Please don't take the Icon's away.  I love this game.  I love pretending to be a Luftwaffe Pilot with Stampf in JG11.  Please don't take that away from me.

Thank you.

 :lol

Das <smooch>

Good points too.  It's a vid game...Icons in AH imo, are right on.  And so is Skuzzy's description of why they are what they are and what this game comes down too...the man in the pit.

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Offline BFOOT1

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 12:33:22 PM »
I downloaded it on PS4 for free and it's terrible. Flight characteristics are awful and it's just terrible. Though I did play it on a friends computer with a Hurricane and I shot down 6 "ace" pilots and was called a hacker and a had an aim bot I laughed and shot them again.
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 12:34:37 PM »
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was called a hacker and a had an aim bot I laughed and shot them again

 :lol  At least they got that part of the experience correct!

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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2014, 12:34:55 PM »
Tunnellrat.

My eyesight is not very good, and slowly getting worse.  Yes, the Icon's mean I can ID aircraft like Chuck Yeager.
I need the icons.  Without them, because of my eyesight, I would be at a huge disadvantage against those with good eyesight.  The icon's therefore even the playing field.  I could never pass an eye test to be a real WW2 fighter pilot.  I want to play a game where I get to pretend I have good enough eyesight to have been a Luftwaffe pilot.  Please don't take the Icon's away.  I love this game.  I love pretending to be a Luftwaffe Pilot with Stampf in JG11.  Please don't take that away from me.

Thank you.

You know me, man... I'm 80hd.  Unless that was too many cocktails back, in which case I understand  :cheers:

I'm assuming you either didn't read what I wrote, or you're trolling me, because I went out of my way approximately 12 times to clarify that I am in no way advocating the removal of icons in the MA.

My entire point revolves around the fact that I believe that no icons (while not realistic) is closer to realistic than MA icons.  That's it.  End of Story.  Leave AH the way it is.

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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2014, 12:35:55 PM »
I downloaded it on PS4 for free and it's terrible. Flight characteristics are awful and it's just terrible. Though I did play it on a friends computer with a Hurricane and I shot down 6 "ace" pilots and was called a hacker and a had an aim bot I laughed and shot them again.

You never played simulator mode.  It's not even a flight sim otherwise.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2014, 12:36:34 PM »
My opinion . . .

I understand your point of view.  You do have good points, but for reasons talked about above and others (all having to do with mapping real life into a different environment and thus needing to make choices on what will end up being harder and what will end up being easier than in real life, since you can't make everything match precisely), I still think that that optimal realism is a discussion about tweaking the ranges at which different things happen rather than about eliminating icons altogether.

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and you've forgotten more about Air Combat and flying in general that I will probably ever know.

I don't know about that.  ;)

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Also, that last pic... that ship gunner must have been awesome!   :salute

Yes, unfortunately for me.  :cry

Offline Brooke

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2014, 12:38:38 PM »
I shot down 6 "ace" pilots

You aimbot hacker!

Offline BFOOT1

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2014, 02:39:38 PM »
You never played simulator mode.  It's not even a flight sim otherwise.

Oh I did I still thought it sucked the trimming wasn't difficult at all, I just think the flight characteristics suck.
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Offline Volron

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2014, 03:06:18 PM »
I downloaded it on PS4 for free and it's terrible. Flight characteristics are awful and it's just terrible. Though I did play it on a friends computer with a Hurricane and I shot down 6 "ace" pilots and was called a hacker and a had an aim bot I laughed and shot them again.


PS4 :rofl

Most of the idiots in WT don't even know BASIC of BASIC maneuvers, let alone basic ACM.  Don't know how many times I do a simple loop and grease them when I come back down, usually netting a couple since someone was following the guy I baited, trying to KS him. :lol  I love getting into scissors with the ones who do basic ACM.  Then it's a field day for me. :)  Seeing as a good majority of the folks put throttle to 100% and keep it there during a fight.  I just got done watching a video where the guy just can't figure out how to turn sharply in quick fashion.  But when I watch him fighting, he's almost always at 100% throttle unless he goes into a dive. :rofl

I love how WT looks, but AH FEELS better.  The feel of Aces High is just better, period.  Now if we could get the graphics of WT in with the oh so good feel of AH... :banana: :joystick: :x
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Offline ink

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2014, 03:30:56 PM »
to me ICONS are definitely NOT realistic....a fighter looking around the sky in the Real world may have better vision capabilities then the guy sitting behind his monitor.....and the icon makes up for far distant viewing....once you get within a certain distance....the icon makes it impossible to lose sight of the con....which was a very real problem in the real world....


and thats the difference....

I think the icon should come into view at what it does now....but as it gets closer...say within 600...it just turns into a red dot.....

if that can be done...then you should be able to set "close" ICONS off and leave far ICONS on.

Offline FLS

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2014, 07:44:51 PM »
You never played simulator mode.  It's not even a flight sim otherwise.


Was that film clip simulator mode? With the huge icon on friendlies and a HUD?

Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Warthunder videos
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2014, 08:14:03 PM »
Was that film clip simulator mode? With the huge icon on friendlies and a HUD?

Still in beta across the board so they haven't removed the quote/unqoute HUD, and friendly icons are from less than 1k away.

The individual flight models don't feel anywhere near as good as Aces, but the overall flight feels good... take-offs and landings are far more difficult.
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