Author Topic: F4U Turning surprise  (Read 4811 times)

Offline artik

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F4U Turning surprise
« on: April 22, 2014, 06:58:32 AM »
I used to love F4U-1D long time ago. Now when I'm back to AH I fly it only from the carriers as no other "normal" plane available.

By normal I mean that is relatively fast, dives, and climbs well.

Yesterday I took the F4U-1D to the fight against Spit XVI... I was surprised how well it turned with several notches of flaps even against Spitfire XVI,

I remember started with diving on it trying to do a snapshot on it, but with few vertical maneuvers I realized it becomes dangerous as Spit gets on my 6. So I dived away to realize that spit closes on me. I did few hard turns and when he was close enough I did once again hard short turn with flaps, extending the gears and dropping the throttle to 0 to see the spit just pass nearby and immediately returned the throttle back, upped the gear and flaps.

If the spit was going vertical I'd probably be dead, however after realizing that I'm on his 6, he started several flat scissors to drop me of his 6 and that continued with a hard steady turn. I had no enough energy but managed to extend flaps and follow his plane enough to get a solid shut withing an about half a circle blowing his wing.

I was surprised how well F4U turned with flaps. I assume that if spitfire would continue on vertical maneuvers I'd be doomed but being able to out-turn a spitfire in F4u was quite a surprise for me.

Was I just lucky or it is indeed not a bad turner (with a cost of a lots of E) ?
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Saxman

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2014, 08:32:17 AM »
The Corsair's flaps generate a TON of lift (you can see this from the stall speed reductions in the operating manual), though as you noted it comes with the sacrifice of a lot of E once you drop past the second notch. You're pretty much committed to a turn fight at that point.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Saxman

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 11:21:48 AM »
Oh, by the way, just wait until you figure out the rudder.

As much press as the flaps get, I find that the rudder is actually even MORE important.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline bozon

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2014, 11:53:33 AM »
While the F4U magic flaps do generate some drag and limit sustained turns, nothing will cut a corner with an F4U under 250 mph after the flaps come out.
Nothing.

The F4U is the only plane I never engage in a maneuvering combat unless I feel the pilot is clueless. I prefer to turn my Mosquito with Spits and KI84s than with F4Us.

I used to love F4U-1D long time ago. Now when I'm back to AH I fly it only from the carriers as no other "normal" plane available.
Heresy!
You have the F6F, which is so much cooler. It also climbs better than the F4U and I swear that when the light hits it in a certain angle, its blue is bluer too.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline artik

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2014, 03:08:21 PM »
Quote
You have the F6F, which is so much cooler.

But also much slower. I really don't like F6F, it feels too heavy to me and has horrible rear view.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Zacherof

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 08:17:23 PM »
But also much slower. I really don't like F6F, it feels too heavy to me and has horrible rear view.
it can do wonders. Greebo can vouch
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Offline Copprhed

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 08:31:53 PM »
it can do wonders. Greebo can vouch
Shut up and fly Zach! Welcome back!
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 08:43:32 PM »
Shut up and fly Zach! Welcome back!
Priorities are my career and girlfriend as of right. Alas we don't have a hard wired internet but wifi wich is crap so idk what other than save and train
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 09:43:06 PM »
While the F4U magic flaps do generate some drag and limit sustained turns, nothing will cut a corner with an F4U under 250 mph after the flaps come out.
Nothing.

Zeke?
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Offline Saxman

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2014, 12:02:24 AM »
Zeke?

In a sustained turn, yes, but at 250 the Corsair CAN briefly out-corner him, ESPECIALLY if you use a high-yo to move your downrange travel into the vertical, and kick hard on the inside rudder. That big barn door on the back end can REALLY haul the F4U's nose around in a vertical turn (wingover or high-yo). You just want to make it a quick corner (no more than ~90-180 degrees if you can help it) and then get the hell out to grab speed and ideally altitude to set up for another pass (do NOT let him sucker you into the sustained turn).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Widewing

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2014, 01:03:31 AM »
But also much slower. I really don't like F6F, it feels too heavy to me and has horrible rear view.

Yes, the F6F is slower. Two reasons for that. Unlike the F4U, Grumman didn't design the F6F with direct ram air. Grumman was rightly concerned with carburetor icing. So, at low altitude the F4U was about 20 mph faster. However, as altitude went up, the low altitude advantage gradually vanished. In tests by Grumman and TAIC show, by full throttle height, the F4U-1D and F6F-5 have virtually identical speeds (409 mph for the Hellcat). In Aces High, we have an F6F-5 modeled with F6F-3 performance. I was hoping it would be corrected when the F6F received the revised graphic update, but it wasn't. This speed equality has been confirmed by my friend, Chris Fahey (a retired F-16 driver), who flies both for Steve Hinton's Planes of Fame. Above 15,000 feet, there is little to no difference in speed at normal power. Chris also flies their P-38J, MiG-15, F-86F, P-51D and just about everything else airworthy.

As it is, the F6F-5 in game easily out-turns all F4Us clean. The best turning Corsair version, the F4U-1, needs two notches of flaps to match a clean F6F-5. However, the added drag still makes it uneven, as the F6F-5 turns the same size circle at a significantly faster rate of turn. As a fight slows down, all F4Us gain a slight to almost no edge with full flaps, from 32 feet (F4U-1) to just 2 feet (F4U-1C) in radius. However, the drag of those flaps is such that the F6F-5 still has a faster turn rate, offsetting the F4U's slightly tighter turn radius.

In game, the F6F-5, at full flaps, will turn a slightly smaller circle, at a slightly higher turn rate, than a flaps-out Spitfire Mk.IX. My testing shows this to be true, as does that done by Mosq in his sustained turn data. Other later vintage Spits, like the Mk.VIII and MK.XVI must avoid flaps, and keep the fight fast enough to use their superior vertical performance. Otherwise, the F6F-5 can beat them in a flat or nearly flat turning contest. Of course, all of the above presumes that the F6F pilot is highly skilled in the aircraft.

In Aces High, very few who fly the Hellcat do so as anything but a carrier borne bomb truck. There are only a handful of F6F "experten". This surprises me, as the Hellcat is a relatively easy fighter to master, and has outstanding combat attributes. I believe the truly poor rear view is a big contributor, along with its mediocre low altitude speed and acceleration. For many players, when the option of running away is off the table, so is the Hellcat.

That said, the F6F-5 is one of the best aircraft for dive speed and control. With combat trim on, it will pull out, hands off, from Mach .80 dives. 604 mph, hands off pull-out at 3g. Nothing else in this game can match this (film available for disbelievers). Not very long ago, in the MA, I'm at 15k and spot a dot on dar. I climb towards the dot. It turned out to be a P-47M, flown by our friend (and amazing banjo player), BBAW. We merged, him coming down, me going up. Probably about 18k high. I did a max rate reversal, ending up about 1.5k behind. BBAW dives away to gain some separation to reverse into a second merge. However, the distance didn't increase. Instead, my F6F was not losing ground. To gain some distance, BBAW increases his dive angle. The F6F is still there. 550 mph, and I'm gaining. Leveling off at wave height, I had closed the distance to 600 yards. Eventually, the P-47M will pull away as the Hellcat slows below 370 mph. But, not before I put my last 200 rounds into the Jug. BBAW was somewhat incredulous. How the heck did the Hellcat outdive the P-47M? Well, the Jug has a lower critical Mach (.73 to the F6F's .75). In short, it attains a higher speed, because of the more rapid drag rise of the Jug. Dive acceleration above 500 mph TAS favors the Hellcat. As we went below 2,000 feet, the film showed the P-47M at 520 mph, the F6F-5 at 550 mph.

Chris' actual flying analysis is that the F4U-1A is faster at low altitude. It has much better ailerons than the F6F-5. Views from the 3/9 line on aft are better. Advantages for the F6F-5 include a much better view over the nose. A far superior cockpit design and layout. Better climb rate for any given power setting. A more effective, albeit heavier rudder (again, unlike the game model). Less trim change over the whole speed envelope, and finally, vastly better low speed handling and stability. His comment was that if you went from the SNJ Advanced Trainer (Navy version of the T-6) to the F6F, you'll find the Hellcat easier to fly.

In combat, the F6F-5 proved to survive battle damage better than the F4U. Grumman truly over-designed the airframe in terms of strength. F6Fs survived, without airframe damage, g excursions up to 13g (as did the stout little F4F). The biggest reason the Navy preferred the F6F was it was simply a better aircraft around the boat. Far lower accident rate. Initially, the F4U had issues with bouncing over the arresting wires. The main gear oleo struts were simply too stiff, with little damping. The Navy contracted with Grumman to fix the F4U's gear problem. Corwin (Corky) Meyer was assigned as the test pilot, and a pair of F4Us were delivered to Grumman. They quickly discovered and fixed the specific design issues, and successfully demonstrated it to the Navy. Engineering drawings were delivered to Vought and Goodyear, with the changes being incorporated on the landing gear production lines. The F4U was now up the Navy's high standard for carrier duty.

So, in the game, how good is the F6F? Plenty good. If the pilot takes the time to master it, and has good SA and ACM skills, he need fear nothing. Co-E, the F6F can go toe to toe with just about anything. Not the best in most categories, it's good enough in all categories to be one of the most balanced fighters in the game. Over recent years, I've maintained a nearly 50/1 kill to loss ratio in the F6F. It's my most successful ride, by far. However, this tour, I statistically lost two to software lock-ups (requiring a reboot). I suggest that F6F pilots fly it aggressively. It hides its E state better than most. It's big and heavy, and zoom climbs better than most fighters. Use rudder to speed up roll response. S turn once in a while to check your 6. Don't be in too much of a hurry to get to a fight. Get some altitude under you that can be traded for speed when needed. The F6F is a top tier GV killer, with lots of ordnance and great low speed precision, along with excellent vision over the nose. Decent gun package, lots of ammo and very stable gun platform. If HTC updates (corrects) the speed model, it'll be even better at medium altitudes.

Link to dive and turn performance film (50% fuel): http://www.mediafire.com/download/hnbuv8856jpk7q2/film41.ahf
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 01:33:42 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline artik

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2014, 01:46:33 AM »
I almost never turn fight - it is sort of last resort, that what happened in F4U when I found myself in co-E with Spit XVI that does almost everything better climbs, accelerates little bit faster - and apparently I could turn with it.

I agree that in the right hands F6F is dangerous - as almost any aircraft in right hands. To me F6F is just "isn't it"... There is no single factor - it is combination: cockpit view, roll, low speed handling... so it just doesn't feels right for me.

I'd say F6F is typical US plane - strong, heavy, with poor climb rate, poor acceleration. I almost never fly US planes, maybe besides P-51D that is the only that was "done right" with good climb and acceptable acceleration. The only exception for me is carriers.

The planes that I actually prefer usually have  excellent climb and acceleration, excellent roll, good speed - almost none of US fighters fit to this category besides probably P-51D that comes close. So my usual rides are Fw-190D, Yak-3, Spit XVI - of course for carriers the best one are US planes.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Widewing

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2014, 02:11:11 AM »
I almost never turn fight - it is sort of last resort, that what happened in F4U when I found myself in co-E with Spit XVI that does almost everything better climbs, accelerates little bit faster - and apparently I could turn with it.

I agree that in the right hands F6F is dangerous - as almost any aircraft in right hands. To me F6F is just "isn't it"... There is no single factor - it is combination: cockpit view, roll, low speed handling... so it just doesn't feels right for me.

I'd say F6F is typical US plane - strong, heavy, with poor climb rate, poor acceleration. I almost never fly US planes, maybe besides P-51D that is the only that was "done right" with good climb and acceptable acceleration. The only exception for me is carriers.

The planes that I actually prefer usually have  excellent climb and acceleration, excellent roll, good speed - almost none of US fighters fit to this category besides probably P-51D that comes close. So my usual rides are Fw-190D, Yak-3, Spit XVI - of course for carriers the best one are US planes.

Check out that film I linked to. With 50% fuel, 3,750 fpm isn't poor. Dora's need to avoid a Co-E Hellcat. The Yak-3 is in big trouble below 250 mph, and the Spit16 better stay fast and fight in the vertical, assuming it survives the second merge (it often doesn't). The Hellcat can beat it on the first two reverses, because it can dump flaps and gain angles really fast. A great dueling match is the F6F-5 and Bf 109F-4. I flew many duels with one of our former players, one of the better sticks in the game (Urchin). Both F6F and F4U vs the Spit16. If he survived the first two merges, he could gain an advantage in the vertical. He usually got shot up before the fight lasted that long. Of course, these were duels with dueling rules. The MA often presents different challenges, such as climbing far out from the first merge...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 02:17:17 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline nrshida

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 02:25:28 AM »
Widewing am I right in thinking that you had evidence that the F4U stall speed was too low in AH?

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Offline artik

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Re: F4U Turning surprise
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 03:28:27 AM »
Check out that film I linked to. With 50% fuel, 3,750 fpm isn't poor. Dora's need to avoid a Co-E Hellcat.

You are talking about 1 vs 1... Now change it into 2 vs 2 with team work... the story changes completely. Hellcat stands no chance.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel