P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14

[CeeEff]

I'm there ....... I hope

[wpeters]

Yippee tonight. Can hardly wait

[FA_Refugee]

I will be there 

[Randy1]

Vox channel?

[BnZs]

I will not be able to attend this. If one of the attendees will film it and post it somewhere, I would much appreciate it.

[Nimrod45]

I certainly hope someone is recording this because I got stuck stuck at work!!!!!  Crud!!!

[deadstikmac]

Again thank you for putting this on for us sir.

[Randy1]

There was some confusion on the one-circle and two- circle fight.

Here is a good link.

http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/t45/p-1276.pdf

The link comes and goes.
Here is another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#BFM_concepts

[FLS]

A two circle fight is a nose to tail fight. It favors the aircraft with the better turn rate.
If a two circle fight has adjacent turn circles the aircraft may meet nose to nose.
Chasing somebody around a flat turn is a two circle fight. A rolling scissors is a two circle fight.

A one circle fight is a nose to nose fight. It favors the aircraft with the smaller turn radius.
A flat scissors is a one circle fight even though you never complete a circle.

[Randy1]

The confusion comes when one thinks of two planes chasing each other nose to tail in a circle as one circle.  That is what threw people off.  The forum is filled with post about what plane out turns another in a circle so one thinks of a one circle flight in that context.

I posted the link for good graphics representing the one and two circle fights.

[wpeters]

Great Job Del.

[Puma44]

There was some confusion on the one-circle and two- circle fight.

Here is a good link.

http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/t45/p-1276.pdf

The link comes and goes.
Here is another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#BFM_concepts

That is a great reference for a broad spectrum of formation and tactical flying.
Here's another for reference.  https://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

[Puma44]

The confusion comes when one thinks of two planes chasing each other nose to tail in a circle as one circle.  That is what threw people off.  The forum is filled with post about what plane out turns another in a circle so one thinks of a one circle flight in that context.

I posted the link for good graphics representing the one and two circle fights.

Here are a couple graphics that may help. 

[FLS]

The confusion comes when one thinks of two planes chasing each other nose to tail in a circle as one circle.  That is what threw people off.  The forum is filled with post about what plane out turns another in a circle so one thinks of a one circle flight in that context.

I posted the link for good graphics representing the one and two circle fights.

What you want to keep in mind is that the point is to determine flow. Flow in this case means we either benefit from a smaller turn radius or we benefit from a higher turn rate. A change in flow might tell you to get your flaps out and reduce your radius or you might need to unload your turn and get your speed up to your best sustained turn. All you need to do to change flow is for one aircraft to reverse direction.

The first diagram shows one circle flow resulting in nose to nose merges. The second diagram shows the typical diagram for two circle flow with offset turn circles allowing a likely nose to nose merge. The third diagram shows two circle flow with a lateral offset merge resulting in the classic tail chase around the circle.

[Warmongo]

What you want to keep in mind is that the point is to determine flow. Flow in this case means we either benefit from a smaller turn radius or we benefit from a higher turn rate. A change in flow might tell you to get your flaps out and reduce your radius or you might need to unload your turn and get your speed up to your best sustained turn. All you need to change flow is for one aircraft to reverse direction.

The first diagram shows one circle flow resulting in nose to nose merges. The second diagram shows the typical diagram for two circle flow with offset turn circles allowing a likely nose to nose merge. The third diagram shows two circle flow with a lateral offset merge resulting in the classic tail chase around the circle.

This stuff is not so intuitive.

This is so far the only explanation that makes sense to me....

And thank you Delirium and AH Trainers for putting up a great class...