Why is the Ki 61 a 35eny bird

[RotBaron]

I believe Aineis said on vox the other day "best plane in the game."        

I'm amazed at how much skill you guys possess that outfly, even outnumbered many times and land a handful. 

KI-61 roll rate (lack) is the most frustrating part for me.

[GScholz]

The 109F is much better in every aspect except guns and dive, still, with equal pilots, the spit9 should have no problems against the 109.

Well... At low and medium altitude the 109F is superior in every way except firepower. Up high the Spit IX is better. If we had a Merlin 66 LF IX you would be correct, but we have the early IX with the Merlin 61 (1941-43). We also have the 1.42 ATA 109F which is a 1942 aircraft, so they're pretty well matched up historically. A 1941 109F was limited to 1.3 ATA.





And the 109F has twice the WEP duration.

[Debrody]

Well... At low and medium altitude the 109F is superior in every way except firepower. Up high the Spit IX is better. If we had a Merlin 66 LF IX you would be correct, but we have the early IX with the Merlin 61 (1941-43). We also have the 1.42 ATA 109F which is a 1942 aircraft, so they're pretty well matched up historically. A 1941 109F was limited to 1.3 ATA.


(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

And the 109F has twice the WEP duration.

I wouldnt consider a 4-5% advantage in level speed as an every way superiority.
There are some other factors, like instanteous turn rate (spit wins by far), E retention during turns (spit wins by far), sustained turn rate (spit wins by far), acceleraion (the spit wins), turn radius (the spit wins by a small margin), flap handling (the 109 has better flaps but it takes long to open/close them), post stall handling (the 109 is more steady but has a higher stall speed and isnt as "easy" as a spit), roll rate (about equal), snap-stall handling (the 109 clearly wins), torque effects (the 109 is just lovely, the spit feels almost neutral) etc etc

As much as i loved flying the 109F, jumping into any spit was just like cheating. Yup, i have never been that much of an expert to suffer from the spits weaknesses like some uber aces out there (cough, cough)  
Not saying that the 109 isnt lovely, just not super training wheel easy mode like a spit. Still the 190 rules all 

[mbailey]

Thanks for your thoughts fellas......  

Maybe my success in the bird is actually blinding me to its handicaps.... and if thats the case....well then im doing something right  

Just need to get over the fact it has no booms, and only 1 engine  

I actually think you are a little bias here mbailey

If you put yourself in the other plane there are many short comings to the 61

Pretty much anything higher than you can catch you...
The only defense you have in this situation is to dive away...great for planes that shed parts as they will not pursue for too long but everything else will catch you...and if one that sheds parts is patient they too will catch you...I think the a6m2, Ki43, TBM,  goon and brew are all it can get away from
once involved in a fight you are there till the end...there are no options once you start turning
They do turn great but many can out turn it, and many others can with flaps. If they can't out turn it they can just climb/run away from it.
The guns are pretty good but as far as 20's go not that flash.
The flaps are ok at best...but they can't stay out...it just can't really do much with them out...and once you are that slow....you have a lot of work to gain speed
It does have an easy stall characteristic which helps maintain a steady platform during stall fighting...but it can let go and dip a wing and although it is recoverable you will have lost significant speed and alt...which is hard to get back if being pressed.

In saying all this it is a very capable plane in the right hands but things have to be finished fast...

THis is great advice for anyone thinking of spending any time in this bird.....thanks Tongs!

[Latrobe]

I think while we're here we should bring up the 109F 

No. 109F is fine where its at. 




(shhhhhhh! Don't let the secret out!!)

[GScholz]

I wouldnt consider a 4-5% advantage in level speed as an every way superiority.
There are some other factors, like instanteous turn rate (spit wins by far), E retention during turns (spit wins by far), sustained turn rate (spit wins by far), acceleraion (the spit wins), turn radius (the spit wins by a small margin), flap handling (the 109 has better flaps but it takes long to open/close them), post stall handling (the 109 is more steady but has a higher stall speed and isnt as "easy" as a spit), roll rate (about equal), snap-stall handling (the 109 clearly wins), torque effects (the 109 is just lovely, the spit feels almost neutral) etc etc

As much as i loved flying the 109F, jumping into any spit was just like cheating. Yup, i have never been that much of an expert to suffer from the spits weaknesses like some uber aces out there (cough, cough)  
Not saying that the 109 isnt lovely, just not super training wheel easy mode like a spit. Still the 190 rules all 

I'm afraid you're mistaken about a few things:

A 4-5% speed advantage is the same as the La-7 enjoys over the P-51D. It is significant enough to allow the faster aircraft the opportunity to escape at will while denying the slower aircraft the same. The 109F can force the Spitfire to fight in a disadvantaged position/E-state.

Instantaneous turn rate is the same for both aircraft over corner speed (approx. 250 mph) where both aircraft are limited by G-loading. Below corner speed there is a narrow speed range of about 50 mph where the Spit has a slight edge in turn rate and radius before the speed drops to where the 109F can deploy flaps. Once the 109 gets its flaps out is is a no contest win for the 109; The Spit doesn't really have flaps.

Sustained turn rate and radius:

109F-4, 25% Fuel
No Flaps: 593 ft / 20.4 dps
With flaps: 449 ft /20.8 dps

Spitfire IX, 25% fuel
No Flaps: 577 ft / 23 dps
Full Flaps: 460 ft / 20.3 dps


Acceleration is a metric that is directly linked to climb rate. At altitudes where the 109F has better climb than the Spit it will also accelerate better.

Turn radius, as previously shown goes to the 109F by a large margin once flaps are out. The 109F handily out turns the Spit in a stall-fight.

However, you are right that the Spit is easier to fly. Especially for noobs. The 109 needs more work with trim and flaps.

[BaldEagl]

^ And that's how a Ki-61 thread turns into yet another Luftwaffe thread.

[Debrody]

I'm afraid you're mistaken about a few things:
...

Turn radius, as previously shown goes to the 109F by a large margin once flaps are out. The 109F handily out turns the Spit in a stall-fight.

However, you are right that the Spit is easier to fly. Especially for noobs. The 109 needs more work with trim and flaps.

The numbers you have listed show that the 109 has an about 2% advantage in turning, both in the dps and the radius. 2%, in the most ideal conditions. The spit consistantly knows nearly the same if not much better values (thats why its that easy and forgiving) while once the 109 is out from its comfort zone, it fails against the spit.

It is anything but "handily out turns the spit", at least in my book.

Also, the 109 is lighter, has a weaker engine, and has much less drag than the spit. Im pretty damn sure that the spit9 accelerates better between 150-250 mph.




Btw, all the luft fanboys suck. Im one though.

[Lusche]

Also, the 109 is lighter, has a weaker engine, and has much less drag than the spit. Im pretty damn sure that the spit9 accelerates better between 150-250 mph.

[GScholz]

The numbers you have listed show that the 109 has an about 2% advantage in turning, both in the dps and the radius. 2%, in the most ideal conditions.

Spit pilots rarely use flaps since they're not very useful, so for a stall-fight the difference in radius is a significant 449 ft for the 109 vs 577 ft for the Spit. That's a more than 20% difference. Add the 109's greater stability near the stall and the result is all but given. With decent pilots of course.

[Debrody]

hmm maybe i just dont know where is the wep button.

Spit pilots rarely use flaps since they're not very useful, so for a stall-fight the difference in radius is a significant 449 ft for the 109 vs 577 ft for the Spit. That's a more than 20% difference. Add the 109's greater stability near the stall and the result is all but given. With decent pilots of course.

"with decent pilots of course" - that doesnt mean that the decent pilot is trying to scissor with no flaps right? If so, there is a 20% difference, really.

[GScholz]

Decent pilots as in knows the different strengths and weaknesses of the two aircraft and has the skill to exploit them. A decent Spit pilot would not use the flaps as they do more harm than good. If it comes to that the Spit has already lost really. The Spit's chance for victory lies in high speed maneuvering and trying to exploit the 109's heavy stick forces at high speed. Low and slow the Spit is at a serious disadvantage.

[GScholz]

^ And that's how a Ki-61 thread turns into yet another Luftwaffe thread.

The 109F was already part of this thread by post no. 3.

[Triton28]

I don't fly the 61 because it has MS Flight Simulator 1.0 graphics.  

Life is too short to fly in an ugly cockpit..  

[Debrody]

Decent pilots as in knows the different strengths and weaknesses of the two aircraft and has the skill to exploit them. A decent Spit pilot would not use the flaps as they do more harm than good. If it comes to that the Spit has already lost really. The Spit's chance for victory lies in high speed maneuvering and trying to exploit the 109's heavy stick forces at high speed. Low and slow the Spit is at a serious disadvantage.

That flap-down disadvantage isnt half as serious as the 109s disadvantage in clean flight (or its just me sucking in 109s), but basically yes. Wanna have a beer on it?