Author Topic: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High  (Read 8618 times)

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #210 on: May 28, 2014, 11:21:02 PM »
And yet they have little effect on the game and are all but free kills waiting to be picked.

Get over it.

Actually they end most fights via toolshedding. Probably 90% of CV fights (Apparently no one realizes anymore that a CV represents a buffet of mostly lower-performing planes parked right off their shore for convenient consumption). All kidding aside, I wish buffs had something to do in this game which did not make the game worse for everyone else.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 11:31:56 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11621
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #211 on: May 28, 2014, 11:49:18 PM »
... All kidding aside, I wish buffs had something to do in this game which did not make the game worse for everyone else.

I used to agree with that but now I think the friction makes a better game. One common complaint about the WW1 dueling arena is the lack of other activity.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #212 on: May 29, 2014, 12:05:22 AM »
I used to agree with that but now I think the friction makes a better game. One common complaint about the WW1 dueling arena is the lack of other activity.

They are used as massive overkill of single buildings in order to prevent to stop uppers, almost never escorted (because they don't need it), rarely intercepted in a methodical manner because one simply doesn't have the tools to do that. They end more fighter-on-fighter engagements than they cause I think. One would think there has to be a better way, something that would look more like the ETO perhaps.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11621
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #213 on: May 29, 2014, 12:09:50 AM »
They are used as massive overkill of single buildings in order to prevent to stop uppers, almost never escorted (because they don't need it), rarely intercepted in a methodical manner because one simply doesn't have the tools to do that. They end more fighter-on-fighter engagements than they cause I think. One would think there has to be a better way, something that would look more like the ETO perhaps.

Well if you think of a better way I'm sure you'll let us know.  :D

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #214 on: May 29, 2014, 12:15:35 AM »
Well if you think of a better way I'm sure you'll let us know.  :D

Whole cities of buildings to bomb for points towards ye old bomber score, but which don't effect the rest of us being able to up?    :D
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #215 on: May 29, 2014, 04:43:28 AM »
Whole cities of buildings to bomb for points towards ye old bomber score, but which don't effect the rest of us being able to up?    :D
In other words take them out of the game.  What makes you think they would want to do that?  When I fly bombers the chance of being intercepted is spice.  If what bombers hit didn't matter at all to the game very few players would intercept them.  Very boring that.

You'd, at the least, have to change the game winning to be based on those whole cities of buildings being destroyed.  Not sure how that'd work with fields not changing hands anymore.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #216 on: May 29, 2014, 05:26:33 AM »
Whole cities of buildings to bomb for points towards ye old bomber score, but which don't effect the rest of us being able to up?    :D

I actually think you're on the edge of something here.

When you look at the historical deployment of heavies IRL, it was generally in the service of taking out strategic targets. The RAF would bomb cities at night, the USAAF would bomb "pinpoint" targets in the day. Generally, these were NOT connected to Luftwaffe operation centers. Of course, there were notable exceptions; eg, D-Day support, etc.

I'm thinking that it's kind of a pity that, as Karnak points out, deploying them as they were actually used sort of "disconnects" them. However, it need not do so IF there were some underlying strategic supply model. I write this, btw, in total ignorance of the way the current strat model works (or fails to do so), as I don't much care for bombing myself.

For example, let's say the NITs have a fuel production center as one of their strat targets. If the Bish are able to take that out, resupply of fuel to the various operational bases is cut off. Each base could have some token capacity for storage that, once exhausted, is not replenished until the strat asset is back up. The same could be established for all of the other war materiels - aircraft, GVs, ords, ammunition, transport capacity. Of course, in order to instill the incentive to both bomb the strat asset and to defend it, people would have to understand the linkage and value of each type of strat asset. Essentially, to make bombing more relevant, we need an underlying economic/logistical model...

As for the tactical bombers, I think the best way to expand their use is to increase the scope of the ground war, introducing more/new ground vehicles, employing field artillery, perhaps even some generalized form of infantry.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #217 on: May 29, 2014, 09:26:03 AM »
  If what bombers hit didn't matter at all to the game very few players would intercept them. 

Da Killz? I hear some people like those.

Very boring that.

Well, bombers only get flown in this game because some people have a gene that makes them immune to boredom. Unfortunately they can still act as *carriers* of the disease, infecting the rest of us  :devil
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #218 on: May 29, 2014, 10:03:26 AM »
Da Killz? I hear some people like those.
People aren't going to fly things that have no effect on the war game.  The fewer people who fly bombers the fewer people who like intercepting them will be around.

Quote
Well, bombers only get flown in this game because some people have a gene that makes them immune to boredom. Unfortunately they can still act as *carriers* of the disease, infecting the rest of us  :devil
And you say I just toss personal attacks?
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #219 on: May 29, 2014, 10:27:00 AM »
Okay, you two are squaring off, starting a spiral. Stop.

I'm actually serious about this idea of an underlying "economy", albeit in simplified form, and would like some f/b on it.

You two can fight offline.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #220 on: May 29, 2014, 10:41:14 AM »
And you say I just toss personal attacks?

But mine are clever.  :D
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #221 on: May 29, 2014, 10:45:00 AM »
I'm actually serious about this idea of an underlying "economy", albeit in simplified form, and would like some f/b on it.

One could make the bombing of strategic targets increase the amount of time it takes town buildings and auto acks and things like that to respawn, thus having an effect on "winnin teh warz" WITHOUT actually negatively impacting anyone's ability to up a plane and scrap.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 10:49:18 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #222 on: May 29, 2014, 10:53:50 AM »
You've begged a question, imj. What are the purposes of the MA and DA?

Where you're coming from sounds like a DA mentality: air combat uber alles.

If the MA doesn't attempt to somehow model war, then how does it differ from DA?

Bear with here: One consequence of making the MA more like a real war, with economic destruction crippling your ability to up and fight, might just be... more DA usage.

At the same time, consider the incentives. bomb****s could actually "WIN TEH WAR" by destroying all the production centers...
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #223 on: May 29, 2014, 11:02:22 AM »
You've begged a question, imj. What are the purposes of the MA and DA?

Where you're coming from sounds like a DA mentality: air combat uber alles.


Air combat uber alles is the mentality of the game "Aces High". The thing that differentiates the  DA mentality is "instant gratification, usually turn and burny individualistic air combat uber alles"

Aces High is most certainly NOT a war game. I have played such games, like "War in the Pacific" and calling AH a wargame is laughable by comparison. :D

I don't think the hangar banging game mechanic promotes fun fights. It is way too easy to kill two buildings to end all resistance. Bomb the town buildings, bomb all the AA guns out of existence, establish air/ground superiority and take the base. If you can't take it just because the enemy still has the ability to up under your vulch enough to resist you, then you don't need to take it.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High
« Reply #224 on: May 29, 2014, 11:07:37 AM »
I don't think the hangar banging game mechanic promotes fun fights. It is way too easy to kill two buildings to end all resistance. Bomb the town buildings, bomb all the AA guns out of existence, establish air/ground superiority and take the base. If you can't take it just because the enemy still has the ability to up under your vulch enough to resist you, then you don't need to take it.

I'm not talking about hangar banging. I'm talking about the ability to economically cripple a chess piece nation via strategic bombing. This would have the effect of crippling ALL hangars (for example, by cutting off their fuel, ords, or aircraft - of perhaps the transport means to provide same), but would necessarily be a difficult thing to accomplish.

Another consequence of this might be: more bombers in the air into which shells might be pumped, but good.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.