Aerodynamic Data Display in the TA/Offline

[BnZs]

One of the civilian flight sims I have lets you display all manner of aerodynamic data on the screen while you're actually flying. AoA, lift, drag, engine thrust, prop efficiency, rate of turn. I think this might be a useful feature for learning to understand the various planes and training at an advanced level.

[bustr]

Wonder if Hitech really wants to give nit pickers a data mining tool to beat him over the head with? It certainty would cut out a lot of time involved in trying to prove some obscure point to him in the ongoing efforts to prove he favors some rides over other rides and so forth. Or the attempt at the gotcha to prove the Brewster and A6m are from Mars and not earth.

Wonder what Morfiend tells new players err (pilots... ) to look at when he's giving lessons in the TA?

[colmbo]

It would be handy for trying different ideas and being able to see the performance effect they have.

[bustr]

And you get a window into the game that will open a door to all the nitpickers with a pet conspiracy performance grudge against Hitech. You may end up with a tool that can cause more customer hurt feelings than it's worth.

At least now without an actual hardstand convergence app, I have to really work at it to be within a 2Mil error parking on cliff sides. Not all planes fit over a cliff edge the same way with the different possible face angle drops. Spit radiators are a hang down nuisance. I have about 5 different fields I use so the cliff edge doesn't rip the wings off different planes just before I reach 0 azimuth. The F4u landing gear door is just within the terrain collision minimum distance on most cliff faces. I ripped off a lot of wings finding a cliff face with the right slope angle so the door didn't touch the edge just after the wheels started down slope.

In both cases, as far as I can tell, only I bother with nitpicking gunnery in this way, while only a tiny minority bother to go through the time and hassles of flight testing just to argue with each other and Hitech, information Hitech could easily just print out for them.

One benefit of the long hand way of performance testing, over the years, it appears players have found things not in the printout that have interested Hitech. 

[BnZs]

Wonder if Hitech really wants to give nit pickers a data mining tool to beat him over the head with?

Since all of this data is derived from aerodynamic testing from WWII and from straight-forward math that use physics to calculate performance from this data, there is nothing to nitpick right?

[Wiley]

Since all of this data is derived from aerodynamic testing from WWII and from straight-forward math that use physics to calculate performance from this data, there is nothing to nitpick right?

Assuming people can agree on the sources.  If it were to happen, I'd suggest buying stock in popcorn.

Wiley.

[morfiend]

Wonder if Hitech really wants to give nit pickers a data mining tool to beat him over the head with? It certainty would cut out a lot of time involved in trying to prove some obscure point to him in the ongoing efforts to prove he favors some rides over other rides and so forth. Or the attempt at the gotcha to prove the Brewster and A6m are from Mars and not earth.

Wonder what Morfiend tells new players err (pilots... ) to look at when he's giving lessons in the TA?

   The enemy of course!   loose sight loose fight!   


   While it may be nice to know AoA,prop efficiency and thrust,those would be of little use during combat and would add greatly to pilot workload.

   I've asked some old fighter pilots about this and they always said the same thing,when you're in combat you dont have time to think about engine settings,trim,etc and you just firewall the throttle and do whatever you have to do to not get killed,when thats over you can worry about the A/C and hope it gets you home!


   Personally I think players should learn BFM and how to use the liftvector. If most knew this I think there would be less complaining and more fighting!



   YMMV.




   

[BnZs]

It's not for combat Morf. It is for learning things about airplanes that can later be useful for fighting in them.
Well, here's an example: When turning an airplane at what is supposed to be the optimum for sustained turn rate, and what is less than optimum, I can't eyeball a difference. And I find that I don't personally have enough hands and eyes to monitor the instruments, keep bank angle perfect and ball centered, AND time the turn with a stopwatch with any sort of precision. And this kind of thing can be very important in combat. For instance, what is the best flap setting and speed for best sustained turn rate on a C205? I have no idea should I need to know for a Snapshot or FSO, and as elucidated above, I have no practical way to find out except laborious testing that might not turn out accurate anyway.

   The enemy of course!   loose sight loose fight!   


   While it may be nice to know AoA,prop efficiency and thrust,those would be of little use during combat and would add greatly to pilot workload.

   I've asked some old fighter pilots about this and they always said the same thing,when you're in combat you dont have time to think about engine settings,trim,etc and you just firewall the throttle and do whatever you have to do to not get killed,when thats over you can worry about the A/C and hope it gets you home!


   Personally I think players should learn BFM and how to use the liftvector. If most knew this I think there would be less complaining and more fighting!



   YMMV.




   

[hitech]

Bnz, what you requested and what you have just stated the reason you wish to have the info are not the same things.

You just stated why you wanted things, so you could then have calc performance such as turn rate, and possible acceleration.

This type of info can be measured, and hence I would not have an issue providing it.

Things like drag,thrust prop eff and and such are not easy things to accurately find for these planes, and hence I have no desire to publish our data.

HiTech

[BnZs]

This type of info can be measured, and hence I would not have an issue providing it.

E/M diagrams for all the planes? Possibly including different flap configurations? That would be great.

Things like drag,thrust prop eff and and such are not easy things to accurately find for these planes, and hence I have no desire to publish our data.

HiTech

They're not in the public domain?

[morfiend]

It's not for combat Morf. It is for learning things about airplanes that can later be useful for fighting in them.
Well, here's an example: When turning an airplane at what is supposed to be the optimum for sustained turn rate, and what is less than optimum, I can't eyeball a difference. And I find that I don't personally have enough hands and eyes to monitor the instruments, keep bank angle perfect and ball centered, AND time the turn with a stopwatch with any sort of precision. And this kind of thing can be very important in combat. For instance, what is the best flap setting and speed for best sustained turn rate on a C205? I have no idea should I need to know for a Snapshot or FSO, and as elucidated above, I have no practical way to find out except laborious testing that might not turn out accurate anyway.

   I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point!  The game gives us some clues in the way HTC has it modeled,the best turn rate is riding the blackout tunnel and the best sustained is when the stall horn is blaring and you're just on the edge of buffet.

   I dont know about you but when I fly I rarely bother with "keeping the ball in the doghouse" to make sure I'm not skidding in the turn,I'm to busy trying to get guns on the enemy. Since we are not flying "real" planes in a "real" environment and HTC has given us a sort of auto trim,I usually let that take care of things for me. Yes I do toggle off CT at times and in certain planes I dont use CT at all.


 Again I will say while it would be nice to know these things,even having a hud that could display them,although I think it might be alot of work to implement,I still think if most players just learned the fundamentals of BFM and worked on putting them together the game would be more fun for everyone!


   Look at it like this,I compare it to boxing,you can learn how to throw a right cross,left hook and a jab,then practice them until you get them down. However once in the ring if you have to think,Ok jab,jab, jab, then hook and right cross,well you'll wake up on the mat wondering what just happened!  You have to know your BFM and you have to be able to react without thinking,it must be instinctive and you only get to that stage from practice,practice,practice.......Oh did I say practice...one just cant get enough and while it may be nice to know you can fly a perfect turn at best speed it wont help you if the enemy know how to go from defensive to offensive with his BFM!


   YMMV.


  BnZ,   Dont get me wrong,I kind of like the idea as it may help assist me train others but I'm not sure the effort to coad this would be worth it.


    

[bustr]

BnZ I tried to warn you without being overt about it.

[morfiend]

   I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point!  The game gives us some clues in the way HTC has it modeled,the best turn rate is riding the blackout tunnel and the best sustained is when the stall horn is blaring and you're just on the edge of buffet.

   I dont know about you but when I fly I rarely bother with "keeping the ball in the doghouse" to make sure I'm not skidding in the turn,I'm to busy trying to get guns on the enemy. Since we are not flying "real" planes in a "real" environment and HTC has given us a sort of auto trim,I usually let that take care of things for me. Yes I do toggle off CT at times and in certain planes I dont use CT at all.


 Again I will say while it would be nice to know these things,even having a hud that could display them,although I think it might be alot of work to implement,I still think if most players just learned the fundamentals of BFM and worked on putting them together the game would be more fun for everyone!


   Look at it like this,I compare it to boxing,you can learn how to throw a right cross,left hook and a jab,then practice them until you get them down. However once in the ring if you have to think,Ok jab,jab, jab, then hook and right cross,well you'll wake up on the mat wondering what just happened!  You have to know your BFM and you have to be able to react without thinking,it must be instinctive and you only get to that stage from practice,practice,practice.......Oh did I say practice...one just cant get enough and while it may be nice to know you can fly a perfect turn at best speed it wont help you if the enemy know how to go from defensive to offensive with his BFM!


   YMMV.


  BnZ,   Dont get me wrong,I kind of like the idea as it may help assist me train others but I'm not sure the effort to coad this would be worth it.


    

 PS:   edit for this.....I guess I should have read Hitech's reply before I wrote this wall of text......

[BnZs]

I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point!  The game gives us some clues in the way HTC has it modeled,the best turn rate is riding the blackout tunnel and the best sustained is when the stall horn is blaring and you're just on the edge of buffet.
 

Are you sure about that last bit? Some writings I have run across lately imply that holding the stick as far back as possible without stalling can actually hurt sustained rate.

[BnZs]

BnZ I tried to warn you without being overt about it.

Warn me about what, Guy-Who-Has-Finished-A-Well-Written-Novel-About-How-Engine-Cannon-Convergence-Is-Modeled-Wrong?