help fighting F4U's

[TheCrazyOrange]

I could use a bit of help fighting the F4U's, particularly in a 109 or P-51.

The trouble I'm having is that they can switch up fighting styles so well. I've tried doing the typical 109 tricks like climbing left turn, exploiting climb/energy generation, and roping. But the F4U just seems to make all of that... irrelevant.

And when I try to maneuver, I run into the obvious problems when encountering those comically large flaps paired with that big bellybutton radial.

As for the P-51, I don't even know where to start.

[Triton28]

You're doing it right, but probably not at the right time.  

Any 109 should be able to take the F4U uphill and beat him, provided you've bled a sufficient amount of his E beforehand.  The trouble with that is, the hog seems to hide it's E well (almost as well as the F/A-18 Brewster), so it's easy to misjudge.

You'll want to play the same game with the 51, but the margin is thinner.

Edit - the exception to this is the -4.  That thing is a monster and can play the vertical game much better than any of the other variants.

[morfiend]

 I dont often comment on these type of threads but since I have thousands of hours chasinf bigrat around in his hog I think I can help.

  With the 109's you need to get the hog to turn,while staying out of his guns,the idea is to slow the hog to about the 200 mph range. Then take the hog uphill,but dont go up left go up right and make the hog fight it;s torque!

  Many players seem to think the 109's cant turn right,this is incorrect,they have trouble rolling to the right at low speeds and high engine power but they will turn right as good as any plane,well except the yaks and alike that have opposite torque!

  The hog has great flaps and will gain angles on the 109 in the turn so you have to time it right but if you can slow the hog down it will not be able to get the nose up for a shot and all the 109 needs do is a luftberry turn when above the hog and drop on it when it gets behind.


   With the 51 you need to use the accelleration to gain sepperation and then gain the high ground,this is much more difficult to do in the 51 as the hog holds most the cards against it. If you want to survive then you need to disengage and get out of dodge,if you want to fight,you need to get ontop of the hog and stay in the rear hemisphere,keep the hog turning to burn E and dont miss the shot you get because you may not get another.


   

[BnZs]

I will only add that the biggest advantage the P-51D has in this fight or in general is the margin it's cruise speed gives it entering a co-alt engagement at most altitudes. Thus I think it usually a better deal to go with 75% internal and clean rather than 50% and dragging drops, and allow enough acceleration time for the Mustang to be at or near it's full speed before entering the combat area.

[TheCrazyOrange]

So sounds like I'm pretty much boned in the P-51. Guess I'm flying the 109 near coasts.

In the 109, do I want to be more aggressive, and actively make him bleed e to avoid my attacks, or do I want it to be more passive, putting myself in a position where I force him to maneuver, or risk giving up a shot?

[Saxman]

So sounds like I'm pretty much boned in the P-51. Guess I'm flying the 109 near coasts.

Careful for us Marines who fly 'em out of the land bases. 

In the 109, do I want to be more aggressive, and actively make him bleed e to avoid my attacks, or do I want it to be more passive, putting myself in a position where I force him to maneuver, or risk giving up a shot?

A lot depends on the situation you're in. However in general, if you're engaging from a position of advantage, you want to be aggressive and force him to constantly evade to strip him of E and force him down. Never extend more than about 2000 yards, and keep as much of that separation in the vertical, rather than horizontal, as you can (that's one of the biggest mistakes I see; guys blowing through at high speeds and running out to 4000-6000 yards before reversing for another pass). This goes for ANY aircraft. The guys who stay within about 2k yards and very close to right above me are the hardest to deal with. This is especially important against the Corsairs, which can all pick up speed quickly in a dive (and maintain control authority up to very high speeds. Plus the rate of roll only IMPROVES with speed, while if my memory is serving me correct from FSO experience, the 109s all tend to suffer poor aileron and elevator response as the speed builds) so that makes it key not to give them room, or else they can go shallow nose-down and run away on you, then zoom back up to a position where you may now find yourself at a disadvantage.

If he's got the advantage, you don't want to maneuver too aggressively or else YOU'LL be the one getting bled dry. The goal is to entice him into over-committing to an attack, and force him to burn off energy pulling out of it.

If you're Co-E/Co-Alt, against the 1-series, as noted in earlier posts you want to start taking the fight up. However make damn sure you're Co-E or better, because the Corsairs all have a good zoom climb, and as I think was noted previously can be very deceptive of their E-state.

As for left vs. right turns, in my experience the only real difference in the handling at low speeds is that the Corsair is a bit twitchier to keep stable in a turn to the right than she is to the left, but I've never noticed an appreciable difference in either turn rate or radius so you're not going to gain much of an advantage in that regard. Rate of roll at low speeds IS superior going to the left, however it's not nearly as badly impacted by torque going to the right as it is in the 109s (which IIRC need some pretty healthy inside rudder to counter). And speaking of rudder, beware that big barn door on the Corsair's back end. You might THINK you're out of his guns, only to end up eating .50cal (I've caught more than a few guys by surprise that way. One of my favorites was a Jug a couple years ago who tried to pass me about 50 yards off my port side in a nose-to-nose co-alt merge. Kicked the left rudder hard over and nailed him as he went by ).

[GScholz]

In the 109 against a better turning opponent first equalize E then spiral climb above him and drop down for gun passes.

[Xavier]

My standard practice in a 109 is performing a climbing turn, since you can outclimb almost anything. Tighten the turn a bit if he tries to get a gun solution on you, evetually he'll fall back or stall a wing. If he has an E advantage, I personally like to do a little vertical manouvering to burn some of his E. Then, climbing turn.

If you're against a markedly inferior climber and you're co-E, roping is quite fun in a 109, specially the K-4. When you're running out of speed at the top cut the engine, then give the rudder a gentle kick as you push the throttle and you'll reverse in a moment. Bless that torque!

[GScholz]

I've often wondered why the F4U-4 lose so much power the first couple thousand feet, or conversely why it gains so much power down low. Anybody know?

[Saxman]

The F4U curves in general are pretty odd. IIRC, the F4U-1/A/D and C are all modeled with the same engine (R-2800-8(W)),  but when WEP is turned on, the -1 doesn't lose any power between the deck and ~2500ft, but the rest of them all have a power fall-off in that first 2500 feet.

[TheCrazyOrange]

Same engine doesn't mean same gearing of the supercharger. I would assume it comes down to that. I mean look at the 51B vs the 51D. Or the A5 vs the A8.

[Widewing]

I've often wondered why the F4U-4 lose so much power the first couple thousand feet, or conversely why it gains so much power down low. Anybody know?

(Image removed from quote.)

The loss of RAM effect... The F4Us have direct RAM to the carburetor, but that is mitigated quickly as it climbs. The F4U takes off in neutral blower. At 5,500 feet or when MAP drops to 45", the pilot will shift into low blower, increasing MAP to full rated power. Thus, there is a gradual power reduction until the blower is shifted from neutral to low, and that is why speed drops somewhat below 5k.

[Widewing]

As to fighting F4U-1 types in a 109, what I do is dependent on what 109 I'm flying. All 109s (except the E) are better in the vertical at low speeds. A 109F or G-2 can maneuver with the F4U, for the most part. Still, you want to keep the fight going up hill. Don't get too far above, or the smart F4U driver will meet you nose to nose when you come down. Keep the F4U turning, dont allow him any time to re-build E.

As for the P-51.... Speed, speed and more speed. Keep at corner speed or higher whenever poosible. I don't recommend trying to maneuver with the F4U below 250 mph. I've recently duked it out with and F4U while flying a P-51B... I knew exactly when to pull up flaps and get separation. Go out, build your E and do a chandelle reverse, diving in to maximize your E. You can do this over and over and wait for the F4U driver to make a mistake. If he doesn't, you can face the classic stalemate, where neither can gain an advantage. Don't get impatient and blow your E. Fight the way the Mustang fights best, which is rarely below 250 mph.

[BnZs]

So sounds like I'm pretty much boned in the P-51.

No, in the case of the P-51 vs. all F4Us other than the -4, your aircraft builds e quicker and has a higher top speed, especially at MIL. With sufficient time and patience you will be able to get on top. Then it is a test of your gunnery. However, the MA environment is non-sterile and it is quite probable that either additional enemy or friendly airplanes will arrive before things are decided.

[GScholz]

The loss of RAM effect... The F4Us have direct RAM to the carburetor, but that is mitigated quickly as it climbs. The F4U takes off in neutral blower. At 5,500 feet or when MAP drops to 45", the pilot will shift into low blower, increasing MAP to full rated power. Thus, there is a gradual power reduction until the blower is shifted from neutral to low, and that is why speed drops somewhat below 5k.

Thanks! 

Did the F4U-1 not have this direct RAM to the carb? Seeing how it lacks the 0-5500 ft increase in speed in the AH charts.