Author Topic: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?  (Read 4529 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2014, 05:33:56 PM »
The USMC have a history of ground support they will never give up without a fight. Every Marine pilot in one of those jets went thru boot camp with the grunts and are both highly motivated and skilled in supporting their own. Every marine on the ground would rather see a Marine pilot supporting them. The USMC would never give up CAS of their own. Never! They are a corp built on traditions.


Yep.  The USMC pioneered the use of close air support during the Banana Wars in Central America and the Caribbean and became an integral part of USMC doctrine that they will never let it go.

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Offline Gman

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2014, 08:29:22 PM »
After USRanger's post about the Vietnam Wall, some of the stats really got me thinking, so I read a bunch of the books I have (again) on the air war in Vietnam, and then went hunting for some videos.

Specific to that close air support doctrine, I happened upon 2 great videos about the siege at Khe Sanh.  I think the USMC and the US military as a whole, but particularly the USMC showed what outnumbered troops in a fixed position can do with that air support doctrine. 

As to what Rich was saying, we've all heard the "every Marine a rifleman" often enough, and it's one of those ethos sayings that actually happens to be 100% factual.  I've always like that idea, if nothing else it gives every Marine the chance to see things from the infantry perspective, which almost all other military systems are designed to support in some way, the "bottom line" guys so to speak I guess.  Maybe that's why when I read things Marines have written along the lines of "we really prefer to have fellow Marines providing air cover over our heads", it's very easy to take them at their word because of this.  Not that other service or even allies air cover isn't taken I'm sure.

I still think of all the variants of the F35, the Marines are the ones getting the biggest boost in capability.  I've read that some of the USMC F18C Hornet squads MAY be getting the F35C as well, so the Corps will be operating both STOVL and CATOBAR types of fighters as they are now, but IMO the F35B will be a great improvement over the Harrier.

Today the Defense sites were saying an F35 will fly over the new Brit Carrier soon, but won't land, just hover, due to not wanting to temp fate and break anything.  Kind of an odd statement, but that's what they said.  I hope the UK builds the 2nd ship and doesn't sell/stop/etc, as having 2 of those new birds farms with F35's may come in pretty handy, ski jump or not, in the future for them, and the rest of the free world. 

Offline Saxman

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2014, 08:40:02 PM »
Yep.  The USMC pioneered the use of close air support during the Banana Wars in Central America and the Caribbean and became an integral part of USMC doctrine that they will never let it go.

ack-ack

As I heard it, even Army grunts prefered the USMC providing CAS due to differences in procedure (Marines emphasizing the CLOSE part of close air support).
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2014, 11:43:33 AM »
Im not going to say USAF and USN Pilots dont care about the troops on the ground. Of course they do. But given their druthers they live for the ATA kill. USMC Pilots on the other hand, and sure all would love a ATA kill painted on, take it very personal when an enemy is attacking their grunts on the ground. I wouldnt want to be that enemy cause your probably going to get barbecued in short order.

But...so much of my info is from previous eras. Nowdays with FAC and precision weaponry ANY air component can probably do amazing things for the ground pounders. Ive heard some awesome stories coming out of Afhcrapistan about the enemy getting caught by the air forces of all the services. It just happens so fast nowadays and with such great precision.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2014, 01:28:40 AM »
^^

Especially with drones that are cheaper to run, and have 99 percent availability rates.  Thanks in part to these things, there is more often at least some type of support to call down, even if it is remotely controlled some of the time. 

I guy I worked for who was one of the founding members of Triple Canopy was one of the first few troops inserted into Afghanistan, and had some pretty crazy stories about support from aircraft that only a few years before were Strategic assets, mainly the B1B. 

I think things like the Sniper targeting pod and other sensors have made pretty much any aircraft capable of carrying it and dropping things a very, very lethal platform.  If you can target it, you can hold it at risk now, plain and simple.  And the USA and NATO can target pretty much anything at will now IMO, except maybe submarines, and the odd very deep unknown hole in the ground.

Offline Shifty

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2014, 06:21:17 AM »
Im not going to say USAF and USN Pilots dont care about the troops on the ground. Of course they do. But given their druthers they live for the ATA kill. USMC

Spend some time around A-10 pilots.

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Offline Puma44

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2014, 10:27:40 AM »
Spend some time around A-10 pilots.
Nothing beats the purpose designed A-10 at getting down and dirty with the grunts, and anyone else that needs a little help from over head.



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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2014, 12:20:58 PM »
Well there is one other aircraft that at least is a match for the A-10...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMIZF86422g&feature=player_detailpage#t=12
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Offline Patches1

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2014, 02:30:24 PM »

Quote
Yep.  The USMC pioneered the use of close air support during the Banana Wars in Central America and the Caribbean and became an integral part of USMC doctrine that they will never let it go.

Not only did the Marine Corps pioneer close air support in the Banana Wars, they also pioneered Medical Evacuation by air!
"We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem."- Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, General, USMC

Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2014, 04:01:29 PM »
Well there is one other aircraft that at least is a match for the A-10...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMIZF86422g&feature=player_detailpage#t=12

The Su-25 is definitely not a match for the A-10. Equal number of hardpoints, half the ordnance capacity, none of the A-10's reputation for being ludicrously tough, and it carries 1/5 the cannon ammo while delivering less energy down range.

Its moderately faster, better climbing, and more maneuverable. None of which increase the capability of a CAS platform.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2014, 07:42:37 PM »
Unless you're about to be overrun and the A-10 is just a couple of minutes too late. With its two MiG-21 engines the Su-25 is actually supersonic, in clean config. Also, to carry its max payload the A-10 would have to be carrying nothing but heavy bombs. I don't think I've ever seen an A-10 carrying a max load. A CAS aircraft needs to be nimble to quickly and accurately attack ground targets and at the same time evade hostile fire. A- fully bombed-up A-10 is a slug that can barely maneuver.

Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) A-10 loadout is typically:

Station 1: empty pylon
Station 2: LAU-68/131 rocked pod
Station 3: SUU-25 flare dispenser
Station 4: GBU-12 LGB
Station 5: empty pylon
Station 6: Mk-82 LDGP
Station 7: empty pylon
Station 8: GBU-12 LGB
Station 9: AN/AAQ-28 LITENING AT targeting pod
Station 10: LAU-68/131 rocked pod
Station 11: empty pylon

So we're talking way less than the max load for the Su-25.



As for the A-10's reputation for "being ludicrously tough", well that's only a reputation in the west. The Su-25 has the same "titanium bathtub" cockpit protection and it's heavily armored and compartmentalized. To take out both engines you'd need to hit it from both sides.

The A-10 is not the first CAS aircraft to fight in Afghanistan... 20 years earlier the Su-25 flew CAS for the Soviets. Every single day all available Su-25s were sent into battle. 60,000 sorties and only 21 losses. And back then the rebels had Stingers!







This Su-25 was hit by a SAM in Georgia during the fighting there a couple of years ago.

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Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2014, 08:35:39 PM »
Same could be said of the Su-25 (who's specs state a subsonic top speed) vs an F-15E or Su-34.

A good example of the A-10's capacity was in Lybia. A convoy had been ambushed and A-10's were close by and directed to assist. After 3 bombs had been dropped, hostile had gotten too close to friendlies for the use of ordnance. A-10's then proceded to perform low altitude strafing runs at about 250ft AGL, and 50yds from friendly forces. Su-25's lack the ammunition to perform this type of mission.

For anti vehicle duties, it's a rather serious flaw.


Is the Su-25 designed and built to fly on one engine and half a wing?

The A-10's uranium armor can withstand impacts from even 57mm rounds in the thickest sections.

The high rear mounted engines protect the engines from below, help mask their IR signature, and reduce risk of inhalation of foreign matter.

Secondary hydraulic systems, and tertiary analog control systems. Landing gear designed to be lowered and locked by gravity and airflow in the event of hydraulic failure.

It's stressed skin design its also a disadvantage in a way, as it cannot simply be replaced with scrap metal, as the A-20's can be.



Now I'm not saying the Su-25 is necessarily a bad CAS platform, only that the A-10 CAN do more, although at a greater cost.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2014, 09:21:36 PM »
You should read up on the Su-25 if you are interested. It's an interesting aircraft. I'm not saying it is better than the A-10, but in my honest opinion it is a good match. It is better in some areas, the A-10 in others. The gun on the A-10 is obviously superior, but the 30mm on the Su isn't bad either with 3000 rounds per minute and enough ammo for a good squirt or two. Both are very survivable, but I think serviceability goes to the Su.

A few western pilots have flown the Su-25. The first one was Jeff Ethell when the Blue Angels visited Russia. He was very impressed with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKFrxsSswM&feature=player_detailpage#t=522
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Offline FLOOB

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2014, 11:57:15 PM »
Dude has quite a wig. Ever notice that the history channel translator always has the same accent of the subject's nationality?  :lol
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USMC does not use Skyjump for their carriers?
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2014, 05:28:42 AM »
Yes, that's one serious Wookiee-snatch...  :huh
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