Author Topic: Double "Ponie"  (Read 8309 times)

Offline earl1937

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Double "Ponie"
« on: June 12, 2014, 05:27:23 AM »
 :airplane: The North American F-82 Twin Mustang was the last American piston-engine fighter ordered into production by the United States Air Force. Based on the P-51 Mustang, the F-82 was originally designed as a long-range escort fighter in World War II; however, the war ended well before the first production units were operational, so its postwar role changed to that of night-fighting. Radar-equipped F-82s were used extensively by the Air Defense Command as replacements for the Northrop P-61 Black Widow night fighter. During the Korean War, Japan-based F-82s were among the first USAF aircraft to operate over Korea. The first three North Korean aircraft destroyed by U.S. forces were shot down by F-82s, the first being a North-Korean Yak-11 downed over Gimpo Airfield by the USAF 68th Fighter Squadron

The Twin Mustang was developed at the end of the prop-driven fighter era and at the dawn of the jet age. Its designed role as a long-range fighter escort was eliminated by the atomic bombing of Japan and the sudden end of World War II. With the rapid draw-down of the armed forces after the war, the newly established United States Air Force had little money for new prop-driven aircraft, especially since jets, such as the Messerschmitt Me 262 and other Luftwaffe fighters, had been faster than P-51 Mustangs in the skies of Germany in late 1944. The completed airframes (less engines) of the P-82 pre-production aircraft already manufactured by North American went into storage, with an uncertain future.

However, during the 1947 Soviet Aviation Day display at Tushino Airport, a surprise appearance was put in by three four-engined long-range strategic bombers. They were early examples of the Tupolev Tu-4, which was a bolt-for-bolt copy of the Boeing B-29 Superfortress, three examples of which had been interned in the Soviet Union after having been forced to land there during bombing raids against Japan. Since the USSR was expected soon to have nuclear weapons, the appearance of the Soviet Tu-4 was a shock to U.S. military planners, since it meant that the U.S. mainland might soon be vulnerable to nuclear attack from the air.

Until jet interceptors could be developed and put into service, the Twin Mustangs already built were seen as an interim solution to SAC's fighter escort mission for its strategic bomber force and also as an all-weather air defense interceptor
The Twin Mustang had a very short operational life. About two years after its introduction to SAC, the F-82E was phased out of service in favor of the jet-powered F-84 Thunderjet for bomber escort duties beginning in 1950. Some were sent to Korea for combat, others were sent to Alaska, but most were declared surplus and were being sent to storage and ultimately reclamation in 1951. Air Defense Command's F-82Fs began to be replaced by F-94 Starfires in 1950, and by early 1951, with most being sent to the smelters, although a few Twin Mustangs remaining in ADC towing aerial targets. In the Pacific, the F-82Gs in combat were also replaced by the F-94 in late 1951 and early 1952, with the survivors being sent to Alaska after being modified to the F-82H configuration in Japan for cold-weather use.

 
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Offline hotcoffe

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 06:12:55 AM »
I heard of this plane couple times and saw pictures etc... always wondered why they did not build it more like a p-38 frame with 2 merlin engines ... and also never understood the concept of 2 pilot here, is one one them more like navigator or something ?
for sure both cant be responsible of flying the plane.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 06:23:49 AM »
I heard of this plane couple times and saw pictures etc... always wondered why they did not build it more like a p-38 frame with 2 merlin engines ... and also never understood the concept of 2 pilot here, is one one them more like navigator or something ?
for sure both cant be responsible of flying the plane.

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Offline Randy1

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 06:34:55 AM »
I heard of this plane couple times and saw pictures etc... always wondered why they did not build it more like a p-38 frame with 2 merlin engines ...

Because the P-38 had a design flaw that could not be overcome beyond a bandaid fix in the dive flap.    That and the P-38 didn't have a laminar wing profile like the mustang.  That is my WAG.  Most likely as well Lockheed had little desire in updating the P-38 with jets coming of age.

Offline earl1937

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 09:19:04 AM »
I heard of this plane couple times and saw pictures etc... always wondered why they did not build it more like a p-38 frame with 2 merlin engines ... and also never understood the concept of 2 pilot here, is one one them more like navigator or something ?
for sure both cant be responsible of flying the plane.
:airplane: Anytime you saw one of these with both cockpits occupied, left side was command pilot, right side was radar operator! These were among the first of the "back seaters", such as was later used in the F4F "Phantom", made famous duing Vietnam and flown by one our own in this game, Puma44". There were many which were set up in the two pilot positions for traning and transition training for the single seat P-51K's, which some of the ANG outfits used. Kinda hard to land the 51K from 50 or 60 feet like a 29 or a 100 feet like the B-36.
I guess the for runner of the back seater series of aircraft were the P-38 night fighters and the P-61 Black Widow!


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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2014, 10:09:03 AM »
Because the P-38 had a design flaw that could not be overcome beyond a bandaid fix in the dive flap.    That and the P-38 didn't have a laminar wing profile like the mustang.  That is my WAG.  Most likely as well Lockheed had little desire in updating the P-38 with jets coming of age.

It's a bit unfair to refer to the "Mach tuck" problem with the 38 as a design flaw. MANY aircraft of the period were experiencing the effects of localized shock waves (typically on the upper surface of the wing) when they approached transonic speeds. In the case of the P-38 it was more pronounced because, not only did it move the CP aft, but it also reduced the downwash on the horizontal tail. But the P-47 and several other aircraft had similar problems, just to a lesser  degree. At least Lockheed, to their credit, figured out what was going on and found a fix. And if it hadn't been for an RAF knucklehead in a Hurricat who couldn't tell the difference between a C-54 and a FW 200, the 8th AF P-38's would have gotten the fix they needed a whole lot sooner.

As far a laminar flow wings go, there's considerable evidence to indicate that the P-51 wing had amazingly low profile drag, even without any laminar flow reduction. In fact, testing done by the Germans on captured P-51 wings revealed that the laminar flow effect completely disappeared at Reynolds Numbers representative of real flight. Throw in typical manufacturing tolerances and surface roughness (which would "trip" the boundary layer prematurely) and there is a good chance that hardly any P-51's in service ever actually experienced the laminar flow they were designed to.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2014, 10:29:46 AM »
I guess the for runner of the back seater series of aircraft were the P-38 night fighters and the P-61 Black Widow!

Beaufighter and an a/c called the Mosquito was before them.

Offline earl1937

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 11:19:09 AM »
Beaufighter and an a/c called the Mosquito was before them.
:airplane: Although I did not specify, I was really just talking about American designed aircraft, which were designed as "night" fighters. The F-82 was equipped at different times by different radar units, mostly the (F-82F's AN/APG-28 and F-82G's SCR-720C18), units which had been used by the P-61, but it was war weary and high maintance and the 82's replaced all of them.
One the interesting side notes of the 82 was when the engineers decided on counter rotating props, the first test aircraft could not even get airborne. The counter rotating action was blanking out any lift by the center section, so 1/4 of wing was not producing lift. After re-installing props which turned, where the decending blade was on the outside of the center section, the bird jumped into the air and away they went!
Up until Burt Rutan flew around the world in his home built bird a few years ago, the F-82B held the long distance record, flying from Hawaii to New York, a little over 5,000 miles, averaging about 347 miles per hour, by a piston engine aircraft.
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Offline SilverZ06

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2014, 11:43:23 AM »
I heard of this plane couple times and saw pictures etc... always wondered why they did not build it more like a p-38 frame with 2 merlin engines ... and also never understood the concept of 2 pilot here, is one one them more like navigator or something ?
for sure both cant be responsible of flying the plane.

I read the concept behind the two pilots was because the aircraft had such a long range that both pilots would take turns resting and piloting on super long range missions.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2014, 12:22:58 PM »
Since the F4 Phantom was already mentioned a picture is called for. ;)

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Offline earl1937

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 12:36:09 PM »
I read the concept behind the two pilots was because the aircraft had such a long range that both pilots would take turns resting and piloting on super long range missions.
:airplane: The 82 was designed as a long range fighter escort for bombers, especially the B-29 and B-36, both of which were very long range bombers. But as things developed in the late 40's, (note the Russian copy of the B-29), the mission profile changed to one of interceptions and night fighter versions. The A, B and C versions all had dual controls in both cockpits, but some of the later models, E and G, the right seat had no flight controls, only radar consoles and radio equipment.  The last 4, still on active duty, were target tow aircraft out of Eglin AFB in Fla and I think also maybe one or two at the gunnery school in Nevada. Not real positive on those numbers, but those are last ones that I heard anything about.
I have often wondered how they would have performed against the German Air Force in its hey day, considering that all six guns were center wing mounted and had no converge problems to deal with on deflection shots, which is the hardest shot to make in air combat. Be interesting to hear what you guys think about that!
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 12:51:09 PM »
Collossus of Ker-rap... Chain Lightning... mmmm.

As for your Phantom, <yawn> yet another inferior US dogfighter...

Indeed, everything from that era was bad. Look at all the Century fighters. They're just glorified mud movers. Yet, there is a sole exception in that era of dullards. It came from a maverick firm situated in S. El Monte , or was it Pico?

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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 12:58:04 PM »
I read the concept behind the two pilots was because the aircraft had such a long range that both pilots would take turns resting and piloting on super long range missions.


That was also my impression.  So far as I know, F-82, like the other WWII planes, had no autopilot.  Hand-flying twelve hour missions in a fighter plane would tax the stamina of anyone.

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Offline Randy1

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 01:06:49 PM »
. . . At least Lockheed, to their credit, figured out what was going on and found a fix.

Actually they didn't.  The problem was solved by the same guy working on propeller mach flow problems.

I am not sure how much design work you do but in my design days we call it a design error.

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 01:21:01 PM »
Up until Burt Rutan flew around the world in his home built bird a few years ago, the F-82B held the long distance record, flying from Hawaii to New York, a little over 5,000 miles, averaging about 347 miles per hour, by a piston engine aircraft.

The F-82 is not even listed in the records.

ANT-25 flew from From Moscow to San Jacinto, California, USA in July 1937, 11,500 km/7,100 mi
Two British Vickers Wellesley bombers which flew from Egypt to Australia in November 1938, 11,523.9 km/7,160.6 mi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_distance_record