Author Topic: Double "Ponie"  (Read 8334 times)

Offline Puma44

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2014, 02:19:31 PM »
:airplane: Surprisingly, it was a "kitty kat" on the ground because of the wide spaced landing gear, 2 tail wheels and tons of power. First thing you have to get used to is that "other" ponie in the corner of your eye! Not being a trained fighter pilot, doing formation takeoffs and etc, it took me a few minutes to get to where I just ignored what was in the corner of my eye!
If I remember correctly, 3 degrees right rudder trim, although with the counter rotating props, torque and "P" factor was not a factor like in the single ponie. Thing climbed like a nothing I had ever flown, with 45 inches and 2750RPM, if I remember correctly again, 5K per min on the ROC and you better be getting ahead of this thing, if you wanted to level off at a certain altitude! Easy on just about everything you wanted to do in it! Slow rolls were very easy, as you didn't really have to do much except dance on the rudders to keep the nose on what ever you had picked out on the horizon. If you couldn't do a slow roll, plus or minus 50 feet in altitude management, you couldn't do one at all.
Off to "Pig" one, target range in the gulf, a target barge anchored 5 mile off shore,  did some slow low passes to get used to the 6 guns mounted together in the center wing section. Wow! I would hate to be on the other end of that spray of .50 cals. We had the rocket trees on that bird, but no rockets, tried that later. Solid platform for gunnery of any kind!
Spins were restricted, it would go "flat" after about 3 turns, but we did all the other stall stuff, power on, gear and flaps out, it would just nod its head, level out and start flying again. Hammerheads were a joy, easy with two throttles to work with. Accelerated stalls were a blast, because it would snap into a spin before you could blink a eye, but a little opposite throttle and rudder and she just flew right off.
Landings were easy, again the wide gear. Used 200IAS and a 360 degree overhead approach, bleeding speed to 100IAS over the fence, and try to roll level just as you crossed the end of the runway. It was very sable in all flight attitudes, so a novice like me didn't have much trouble with it. Had about 5.5 hours in it I think. Lost all my flight logs and etc in house fire in 88, but I think that was about right.
It was a great aircraft, just got to the war 2 years to late. I don't think any every saw any action of any kind until the Korean thing!
 
How was it with an engine out?  Any significant difference with the left or right engine out?



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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2014, 02:22:06 PM »
Lets not take anymore space from Earl's thread.  My bad.

Yeah, I think the three of us owe Earl an apology for nearly derailing his thread. Now if we can just get the Phantom Admiration Society to follow suit.   ;)

Earl, were you serious about the 5000 fpm climb rate on the Twin Mustang? That's outstanding.
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline Puma44

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2014, 02:29:23 PM »
Yeah, I think the three of us owe Earl an apology for nearly derailing his thread. Now if we can just get the Phantom Admiration Society to follow suit.   ;)

Earl, were you serious about the 5000 fpm climb rate on the Twin Mustang? That's outstanding.

The Phantom Admiration Society has moved to another thread.



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Offline earl1937

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2014, 02:45:29 PM »
Yeah, I think the three of us owe Earl an apology for nearly derailing his thread. Now if we can just get the Phantom Admiration Society to follow suit.   ;)

Earl, were you serious about the 5000 fpm climb rate on the Twin Mustang? That's outstanding.
:airplane: I can't remember guys, I just know it climbed like a rocket, with no ords or anything but guns. It flat outclimbed anything I was ever in!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline earl1937

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2014, 04:52:13 PM »
How was it with an engine out?  Any significant difference with the left or right engine out?
:airplane: A handful to say the least! If you are going to have shut one down or lose it, better make the right one the choice, if you have one, cause if the left goes, now you have twice the normal effect of torque and "P" factor. All I ever had thrown at me was 12 inches MP, which is zero thrust for that bird and 3 touch and goes later, the man said let out of here before you kill me! LOL!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Puma44

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2014, 05:00:17 PM »
 :rofl



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Offline mbailey

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2014, 05:02:24 PM »
The Phantom Admiration Society has moved to another thread.

+1. Sorry Earl  :cheers:
Mbailey
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2014, 06:57:13 PM »
If you'll look, I attempted to do exactly that.  Cool radome on the night fighter, huh?  :D

Yep, and I said nothing, but nodded silently in agreement.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2014, 10:07:46 AM »

Earl, were you serious about the 5000 fpm climb rate on the Twin Mustang? That's outstanding.

Look into the climb rate of the P-38K. Standing start at the runway threshold to 20K feet in 5 minutes flat.

Also remember that the P-38K had a 3 blade version of that propellor that improved further with the 4 blade version.


From an article on the P-38K :

Quote
Flight tests were conducted from late February through the end of April 1943. Performance was better than hoped for. Maximum speed at critical altitude (29,600 ft) was 432 mph (Military Power). At 40,000 feet, the "K" zipped along at a speed that was 40 mph faster than the current production P-38J could attain at this same height. Maximum speed in War Emergency Power, at critical altitude, was expected to exceed 450 mph. The increase in ceiling was just as remarkable. Flown to 45,000 ft on an extremely hot and humid day, Lockheed engineers predicted a "standard day" service ceiling in excess of 48,000 ft! Improvement of the cowling fit and the elimination of the heavy coat of paint would have gained even more performance. Due to the added efficiency of the new propellers, range was expected to increase by 10 to 15 %. Lockheed appeared to have a world-beater on their hands.

The plane, now designated the P-38K-1-LO was flown to Elgin Field for evaluation by the USAAF. Flown against the P-51B and the P-47D, this Lightning proved to be vastly superior to both in every category of measured performance. What astounded the evaluation team was the incredible rate of climb demonstrated by the P-38K. From a standing start on the runway, the aircraft could take off and climb to 20,000 feet in 5 minutes flat! The "K", fully loaded, had an initial rate of climb of 4,800 fpm in Military Power. In War Emergency Power, over 5,000 fpm was predicted.

Note when the plane was built and tested.


Also of note, the P-82 was powered not by Packard Merlin engines, but by G series Allison V-1710 engines. The G series was the updated version of the F series in the P-38. The G series had additional counterweights on the crankshaft for improved durability, and a higher RPM redline, as well as improved crank driven superchargers. The rare V-1710F-15 engines found in the P-38K were rated at 1875HP each. Had the turbocharger and tune from the V1710F-15 engines been used on the G series, around 2500HP was possible, even at 35K feet. The V1710G-6 series was rated at 2250HP @ 101" of boost @ 3200 RPM. Throw on a General Electric B-33 turbocharger and intercooler system as found on the P-38J and later, and you have an easy 2500HP, and the capability to produce sea level HP at over 30K feet.

"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2014, 10:24:01 AM »
There was only one P-38K-1-LO built. :x

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2014, 07:07:28 PM »
There was only one P-38K-1-LO built. :x

And a I bet you Steve McQueen bought it. Probably keeps it stabled with his Porsche 917K.   :D
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2014, 09:04:05 PM »
There was only one P-38K-1-LO built. :x

Actually, there was a mule built from a P-38E test plane, and then a P-38G service test airframe was built.

http://www.456fis.org/P-38K.htm
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline drgondog

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2014, 10:24:59 AM »
"
Also of note, the P-82 was powered not by Packard Merlin engines, but by G series Allison V-1710 engines."

Actually the first 20 were built with Packard Merlin 1650-23/25. The XP 82 with these engines with 1380 Hp Take Off power and 1500 Hp at MP and 1810 Hp WEP, 19,100 GW with full 600 gallons internal fuel hit 468 mph at 22K, climbed to 25K in 6.4 minutes.

The AAF jammed the Allison 1710-143/145 into the rest of the produced P/F-82s and it never achieved the same WEP ratings as the Packard Merlin.  According to Schmued the Allison folks would never respond to the need for backfire screens at high boost and the problem was so severe that manifold pressure was limited to 60" in that engine.  Schmued remained pissed off at Allison until the day he passed.

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Offline Old Crow

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2014, 03:33:41 PM »
An article by Warren E. Thomson in International Air Power Review (Vol. 3) sheds a different light on the engines powering the F-82G: "Over the years, a gross misconception has arisen regarding the horsepower developed by the huge Allison engines in the F-82G models. In many periodicals, it has been stated that these 12-cylinder engines developed 1,600 hp, but this is incorrect. This figure was true of the early, lighter-weight models, but for the all-weather versions, laden with radar gear and added equipment, 1,600 hp would hardly be sufficient to get the aircraft off the ground.

Lieutenant Colonel John Sharp shed some light on the powerplants of his G models. 'The 1,600-hp engines that are currently published on the F-82 stats pertain only to the early day fighter models, which were significantly lighter. After World War II, the all-weather version was built and it was much heavier. These engines did not have enough power. Even the vaunted Rolls-Royce Merlin could not satisfy the power requirements. Finally, the giant 2,250-hp Allisons, originally designed for the P-51H, were installed - and with the counter-rotating props, it was a dream to fly!'"

Lieutenant Colonel Sharp continues in Mustangs International Fall 2013: "The twin Mustang flew like no other fighter. It far surpassed the performance of the P-51 and P-38. Anyone who flew the P-38 knew the comfort of flying the counter-rotating propellers --- no torque, no trim changes during maneuvers, etc. The big drawback to the P-38, however, was that the props rotated "out" creating a terrible torque problem and trim change during single-engine operation. The F-82 props rotated "in" causing the torque or "P" factor if you prefer, to work to LIFT the dead side. We could feather one of these engines at high speed with little or no trim change. We flew the F-82 with a stick instead of a wheel, which made it more comfortable and far more maneuverable. The massive ailerons extended almost the length of the outer wing panel and were hydraulically operated with a 17-to-1 boost ratio. Talk about power steering -- you could aileron roll this thing so fast it would snap your head, and to the pilot, he was rolling on a point. The other airplane on the other side seemed to roll around him in an arc."

Sharp continues: "And power ! That was something else. Two big left- and right-hand Allison engines pushing out 2,250 hp each with constant supercharged power to max altitude. They say these engines were designed to take 145-in of mercury on takeoff using 145-octane gas and water injection. We never did this so we don't know for sure. We flew them dry without water injection and were limited to 75-in MP but that still gave us one heck of a rate of climb. Aerobatics in the Twin Mustang were unreal. The aircraft was almost totally unrestricted even with the pressurized radar pickle installed. Yes, sir, this airplane with a top speed of 475-mph+ flat out-topped them all."

Sounds like a pretty good aircraft to me. In the ground attack role, they could replace the radar pod with a gun pod containing 8 .50 caliber guns with 400 rds. each to go along with the 6 already in the wing for a total of 14 .50 caliber guns. What firepower! This was never used as far as I know, but what a gun platform it would have been. The F-82 in my opinion got lost in the shadow of the jet age and never reached its full potential but not because it was underpowered unless Colonel Sharp and Warren Thompson are blowing smoke.

Offline DaveBB

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Re: Double "Ponie"
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2014, 11:49:12 AM »
Colonel Sharp's statements raise some huge red flags.  He said the P-82 rolled around the pilot, the other aircraft arcing.  The P-82 would have rolled around its longitudinal axis (the center-line of the plane).  Then he states that the allison engine could pull 145 in/mg with 145 octane gas, but that they were limited to 75 in/mg. 

So basically one erroneous statement and one bogus statement. 
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.