Aces High and real aircraft!

[Zimme83]

I would say that in real life you are screwed without elevators and that is most likley the cause if u loose ailerons too. W/o elevators all efforts to slow down will inevitably make the nose drop and make the plane dive. Flaps could help u a little, it depends on wht plane you are flying, but the chanses of a successful landing is only theoretical. The stability of the plane and the rudder can help u fly a plane w/o ailerons and its possible, yet unlikley, that u will land safely.
 I have seen one case of aileron loss irl and it went as u could expect. (May he rest in peace. ).
U can fly w/o rudder, landing could be more of a challenge but as long as u avoid crosswind it is possible to do.

[colmbo]

I had a good CFI.  He made me land without using the elevator on more than one occasion so it is certainly possible.  Same with flight without ailerons.  The issue would be a jammed control surface if the alternate methods were not able to counter the jammed control.

[PJ_Godzilla]

What is the normal order of rotation when using these as  classic Euler angles.

HiTech

I always thought it was alpha beta gamma about the z, N ( or x' ), then Z... But this is counterintuitive to me and stretches my memory.

[Zimme83]

I had a good CFI.  He made me land without using the elevator on more than one occasion so it is certainly possible.  Same with flight without ailerons.  The issue would be a jammed control surface if the alternate methods were not able to counter the jammed control.

True, there is a big difference btw just lost of control if the control surfaces could be affected by the trim, In those cases it is def. possible to make a safe landning, and jammed or lost control surfaces. In AH it is all about loss of the control surface itself and that is a much more serious situation than just a snapped wire or something like that.

[earl1937]

True, there is a big difference btw just lost of control if the control surfaces could be affected by the trim, In those cases it is def. possible to make a safe landning, and jammed or lost control surfaces. In AH it is all about loss of the control surface itself and that is a much more serious situation than just a snapped wire or something like that.

To put a point on this thread, you can lose all your controls at one time and if you have multiple engines, you can control the aircraft to some degree. Remember the DC10 at Sue City, Iowa? It had no controls of any kind, but crew managed to get it down on an airport and yes, a lot of people died, but a lot of people lived to, including the crew. If they had rudder, then would have been able to keep it on runway and then they might have all lived! But, they didn't and aircraft touched down beside runway, cartwheeled and crashed.
If I have a choice, give me the rudder every time, as directional control is very important when landing!

[Zimme83]

I claim that u are very wrong at that point. Flight 232 had not done anything better w rudder control. They hit the ground with a high speed and high level of decent because they where unable to slow down or flare the plane. On final they had 240kn of airspeed and a sink rate of 1850 fps. Do u really thing that a rudder would have saved them? Ok, it havent made it worse but i bet the pilots would have trade that rudder for the elevators.

Edit: the fact that so many survived after all was primary due to a number of lucky circumstances, that the National Guard where on scene for an excercise for example.

[colmbo]

Flight 232 had not done anything better w rudder control. They hit the ground with a high speed and high level of decent because they where unable to slow down or flare the plane. On final they had 240kn of airspeed and a sink rate of 1850 fps. Do u really thing that a rudder would have saved them? Ok, it havent made it worse but i bet the pilots would have trade that rudder for the elevators.

Having rudder would have been very helpful.  They were using differential power for yaw control so they couldn't use all power to slow sink rate.  They cartwheeled because they hit a wing on landing, with rudder they might have been able to keep wings level.

[earl1937]

I claim that u are very wrong at that point. Flight 232 had not done anything better w rudder control. They hit the ground with a high speed and high level of decent because they where unable to slow down or flare the plane. On final they had 240kn of airspeed and a sink rate of 1850 fps. Do u really thing that a rudder would have saved them? Ok, it havent made it worse but i bet the pilots would have trade that rudder for the elevators.

Edit: the fact that so many survived after all was primary due to a number of lucky circumstances, that the National Guard where on scene for an excercise for example.

You have made some points, but I would point out that they were not able to aligned themselves with the runway, hence they touched down on grass beside runway, gear dug in and then wingtip. Had they been able too touch down on pavement, I think they would have had a much better chance of survival because the gear was down and locked and they might have had directional control through the nose wheel steering. Not sure if it, on the DC10 is hydraulic, or electric, but at any rate, I doubt if they would have cartwheeled, which is what caused most of the deaths. If you review the video of the crash, you will see that they were in a level attitude prior to touchdown which would have also enhanced their chances, if they could have touched down on the runway.

[GScholz]

Good doc on the DHL flight that landed successfully with no hydraulics and thus no working controls except engines.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18udw1_mayday-s03e02-attack-over-baghdad_shortfilms

[Zimme83]

You have made some points, but I would point out that they were not able to aligned themselves with the runway, hence they touched down on grass beside runway, gear dug in and then wingtip. Had they been able too touch down on pavement, I think they would have had a much better chance of survival because the gear was down and locked and they might have had directional control through the nose wheel steering. Not sure if it, on the DC10 is hydraulic, or electric, but at any rate, I doubt if they would have cartwheeled, which is what caused most of the deaths. If you review the video of the crash, you will see that they were in a level attitude prior to touchdown which would have also enhanced their chances, if they could have touched down on the runway.

But still. With 240kn and 1800 fpm sink rate u dont land, that was a semi-controlled crash. and even u have to admit that the elevators had done more to the crew than the rudder. Elevator control had given them the opportunity to land at a much lower speed and at a lower sink rate.
As i said earlier, rudder control would not have make anything worse but the elevators would have been far more helpful.

[Cthulhu]

But still. With 240kn and 1800 fpm sink rate u dont land, that was a semi-controlled crash. and even u have to admit that the elevators had done more to the crew than the rudder. Elevator control had given them the opportunity to land at a much lower speed and at a lower sink rate.
As i said earlier, rudder control would not have make anything worse but the elevators would have been far more helpful.

I tend to agree. With differential thrust available for yaw control, elevators to control pitch would have made a huge difference.