Author Topic: First Of The Few  (Read 2329 times)

Offline Dragon Tamer

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First Of The Few
« on: June 17, 2014, 02:18:24 PM »
No, it's not an RAF skin.

This was one that was requested by Kodiak but was delayed because of a lack of information. Thanks to Lyric1 for finding something that I could work off of.

This P-51B was delivered to the 31st FG 308th FS to replace their older Spitfire Mk 5b. It was unusual in that it was olive drab rather than the usual bare metal that the group used.






Offline Zerstorer

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2014, 02:27:36 PM »
I don't fly the pony much myself....but I like the skin.   :aok
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Offline Coalcat1

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2014, 09:14:06 PM »
 :aok

Offline Devil 505

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 09:22:47 PM »
Seems to be missing the Neutral Gray underside paint. Otherwise, it's fantastic.  :rock
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Offline Dragon Tamer

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 09:46:41 PM »
Seems to be missing the Neutral Gray underside paint. Otherwise, it's fantastic.  :rock

None of the photos showed that the groups olive 51Bs sported a gray belly. The work for this one was done exclusively using photos. The only color profile that was found lacked an actual photo to go with it and it was a very small, low res image. Lyric looked through the book it belonged to and said that it only had partials of the bird I was going to do.

These were the images I used as a reference.







Maybe I'm not good enough at analyzing B&W photos but I wasn't able to find any gray on the underside. If lyric or anyone else knows something different please let me know.

Offline Devil 505

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 10:23:07 PM »
Interesting. I've never heard of an overall OD scheme before. If you don't mind, I want to post on another forum about it. In photo 3 there may be a wavy demarcation line on the nose but it's very hard to tell. Also, there may be some gray aft of the trailing edge of the wing in pic 1. Again, very hard to tell. If it were my skin, I'd follow the standard painting regulation guideline.

I did find a color photo of a 51st FG Pony with a very low demarcation on the rear fuselage. What is important to note is the similarity in the tone of the two colors. I can imagine that with B/W film it would be very difficult to see.

http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-51-mustang/p-51b-mustang-51st-fighter-group-shark-mouth-43-7058/
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Offline Krusty

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2014, 12:06:15 PM »
In both of the photos Dragon posted you can clearly see the landing gear door is grey as compared to the OD uppers. This is a common mistake many make -- poor photo interpretation. You WANT it to be odd/strange so you see it that way, and create your own self-supporting proof. Unintentionally, for the most part, but still inaccurate. No P-51B/C had OD unders. They were factory-applied colors. They had low demarcation lines (as mentioned) but they definitely had grey unders.

Yellow stripes weren't just for looks. They were a standard feature with standard placement and dimensions. Your inboard stripes are too narrow by about half.

You've added a lot of chipping on the vertical stabilizer but this isn't held up in the color photo. The combat damage photo clearly had something explode near the tail (cannon shells? flak?) which would probably blow some of the paint off or scrape it off with shrapnel. I wouldn't use that as a basis for what the plane looked like when it took off. They maintained those airframes fairly well. Look at both the color and the black and white photos and you won't see the kind of missing strips of paint you have on your skin. There's also a logical error in the chipping being on top of the red. It would be under the red stripes (which are the most recently applied in this case, the freshest paint).

You don't have a serial number under the red stripes, but it's clear they applied them directly to the plane as it was. If you're using a specific plane put that serial number on and move that layer under the red stripes layer.

Finally, the color photo you show has no red on the wingtips. Having multiple stripes on the wings are quite common in some form or another (especially on P-51s and P-47s) but the red wingtips are a little odd unless you have another reference you aren't sharing here. Seems the wingtips were standard OD-upper/grey-under.

Overall it's a decent start, but you need to do a little more work on the details that go along with it.

Offline Kodiak

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 01:21:39 PM »
Thanks for this, DT :aok

I'll let you folks work out the width of the yellow recognition stripes and the under color, but regarding the red wing tips:

Finally, the color photo you show has no red on the wingtips. Having multiple stripes on the wings are quite common in some form or another (especially on P-51s and P-47s) but the red wingtips are a little odd unless you have another reference you aren't sharing here. Seems the wingtips were standard OD-upper/grey-under.

I have never seen a color photo of a 31st FG Mustang with the red diagonal tail stripes that did not also have red wingtips which were a characteristic of the 31st FG squad colors.  So in the absence of a color photo to prove otherwise, it is much more likely the wingtips were red than not.  The color photo above is of a P-51 that has not yet had the red diagonal tail stripes applied thus the standard color wingtips also.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 02:08:58 PM by Kodiak »

Offline Kodiak

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 04:15:15 PM »
I don't know how skinners view art like this book cover, but it does supply another potential reference point.  I doubt the auther would agree to fictional colors on the cover of his book, so I'm guessing that the auther might have supplied information to the artist regarding the plane colors.  Maybe not, but this book cover may help out:



http://www.tower.com/31st-fighter-group-in-world-war-ii-aircraft-ron-mackay-paperback/wapi/117949754#product_details

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 04:20:56 PM by Kodiak »

Offline Devil 505

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 06:31:46 PM »
I'll say this about Osprey's books, especially on Luftwaffe subjects. Great overview on the given subject, with the occasional gem of unique information. Their photos are generally good, with good diagrams showing the differences in variants. The cover artwork is high quality, although accuracy of the subject is not certain, aircraft profiles are fair at best with many flaws and artistic license.
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Offline BuckShot

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2014, 08:37:28 PM »
Is the plane on top a typhoon?
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2014, 09:06:45 PM »
I'll hazard a guess at Spit5 with the sand filter
Is the plane on top a typhoon?
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2014, 10:42:32 PM »
I'll say this about Osprey's books, especially on Luftwaffe subjects. Great overview on the given subject, with the occasional gem of unique information. Their photos are generally good, with good diagrams showing the differences in variants. The cover artwork is high quality, although accuracy of the subject is not certain, aircraft profiles are fair at best with many flaws and artistic license.

This is very well said by Devil 505.   

Don't believe every profile you see.  Way too often it's nothing more then someone's interpretation of a photo. 

Understand the 31st transitioned from Spits to 51Bs and got OD/Gray 51s before their more well known natural metal finish P51Ds.  Here is another photo of that Mustang.  No red tips, just the standard MTO yellow wing ID bands and red spinner.  Unless you've got photo proof of the red wing tips I'd leave them off.  If you watch the progression of color on USAAF birds in whatever theater of the war, it tends to coincide with more time for the ground crews and less intensity of the operations.  This was no different in the MTO where by the end of the war you had all kinds of extra color, vs early on when it was minimal to differentiate between the groups along with the standard ID bands and noses.



Note the wing bands are 'tweeners' from the original single yellow band mid wing to the two bands of the late war birds.


Another OD/Gray 31st bird.  Note the gray of the wheel covers match the gray of the DTs.  Also note that the tail appears to have been stripped to show the red stripes better.


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Offline BuckShot

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2014, 05:57:12 AM »
I'll hazard a guess at Spit5 with the sand filter

Thanks, the filter threw me off.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 05:59:15 AM by BuckShot »
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Offline Kodiak

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Re: First Of The Few
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2014, 06:14:36 PM »
This is great info, Guppy.  The last picture gets us to the P-51B on the book cover with the OD/Grey scheme and stripped tail to show the red stripes better.  Also I still think the red wingtips would be appropriate as they were used by the 31st and I just don't think they would go to the trouble to strip the tail prior to applying the red stripes and not paint the wingtips red...plus they look sharp!

What do you think, DT :)