Tool Shedding-Get rid of it.

[Xavier]

Actually most don't enjoy it, because most aren't doing it.

Most fighter pilots will jump on any co-alt bombers they find, or climb 5-10K to reach them. And that's without getting into the kind of people who fly high caps and wait for that darbar to approach.

You said I would object to a set of Lancs coming to carpet bomb vehicles defending town. I pointed out how this actually fits perfectly into the scenario of continuous action that I positively endorsed.

Would you still endorse it if it's a set of 25K B-17s?

Now compare this to attacking heavy buff formations. If my energy advantage is only just enough to close on their tails, then my attack is suicide. One really needs what amounts to a rather massive E advantage over buffs before attacking. If you need more of an advantage to fight average buffs than you do your average P-51D, then it is perfectly logical to say that bombers have been made more formidable than P-51Ds in this game

Well, if you slowly come creeping up a bomber's tail and set a perfect shot for the tail gunner, you know what's coming. Do you need an E advantage when fighting bombers? Yes! But it's quite hard to have less E than the average bomber once you're co-alt. Take a P-51D, for example. It has a 100mph speed advantage over a B-17 formation at every altitude.

But then again, approach and where to aim matter a lot more than the plane you're in, or your E state. I've gunned down Komets in a Ki-67 because they used the lazy tail approach, and I've been shot down by a raging F4F without scoring a single hit on him, simply because he used the correct approach.

Hell, ask 999000 what happens when someone does vertical passes on a formation in a cannon bird. It's incredibly hard to counter. But I'll use something different to show you that what matters is the approach and where to aim, not the airplane:



And for the record, those weren't afk  

[thndregg]

Hitech has stated that one goal of the game is to piss people off.

Mission accomplished.

   As a former subscriber, and C.O. of an awesome "toolshedder" bomb group, we took great delight in being the burr under the bad guy's hide. And the result was a hell of a firefight. Sometimes we survived quite well. Other times, we ended up as scrap. A lot of fun, either way.

[BnZs]

Most fighter pilots will jump on any co-alt bombers they find, or climb 5-10K to reach them. And that's without getting into the kind of people who fly high caps and wait for that darbar to approach.

Most people are obviously not patrolling for bombers, because they get through with such frequency. The logic here is inescapable. Apparently the lure of easy kills still cannot induce most players to spend their valuable sortie time sitting there at 20K waiting for buffs.

Would you still endorse it if it's a set of 25K B-17s?

I'm fine with any action in the game that doesn't inherently tend to prevent combat from occurring, which is the point of this whole thread.  The point of the game is to kill the other guy's machine with your own after all. You specified clearing out vehicles however, a guy climbing to 25K in buffs would kinda be wasting his own time trying to hit much from that altitude.

Well, if you slowly come creeping up a bomber's tail and set a perfect shot for the tail gunner, you know what's coming. Do you need an E advantage when fighting bombers? Yes! But it's quite hard to have less E than the average bomber once you're co-alt. Take a P-51D, for example. It has a 100mph speed advantage over a B-17 formation at every altitude.

But creeping up another P-51D's tale works perfectly well to kill him. So again, you need more of an energy advantage over a bomber formation to kill it than you need over another P-51D. Therefore it is again logical to say that in some respects bombers have been made more difficult to kill than fighters in this game.

Also the P-51D is one of the very fastest fighters in this game. Many fighters will have much more trouble accelerating and chasing down bombers, especially if they have to climb above them first.

To make a decently safe pass on bombers you have to be both fast enough to have closure and significantly above them, two parameters that take a very long time to satisfy unless you are already there. If you spot bomber co-alt or above in the MA, you're generally not going to get this position in time to stop the drop. You can do so afterwards of course, but this does nothing if they have already dropped.

Hmmm...this is a key point of the imbalance. Bombers dropping hangars impedes one side from upping, while shooting down bombers does nothing to impede more buffs from coming in. No attrition, you see. If buffs were off limits to an individual player for perhaps 15 minutes after his entire formation was shot down, that would be a whole different kettle of fish. But that is yet another proposal that will be rejected out of hand because it ain't what already is. 

Hell, ask 999000 what happens when someone does vertical passes on a formation in a cannon bird. It's incredibly hard to counter. But I'll use something different to show you that what matters is the approach and where to aim, not the airplane:

I have taken damage even doing "perfect" passes from above. It doesn't really make the fighter pilot invincible or the bomber pilot a helpless target, it more just gives the fighter pilot a fair chance.

[Volron]

  As a former subscriber, and C.O. of an awesome "toolshedder" bomb group, we took great delight in being the burr under the bad guy's hide. And the result was a hell of a firefight. Sometimes we survived quite well. Other times, we ended up as scrap. A lot of fun, either way.

Your group needs you badly for this.   They don't seem to do it as often as they use to.

[Karnak]

I have taken damage even doing "perfect" passes from above. It doesn't really make the fighter pilot invincible or the bomber pilot a helpless target, it more just gives the fighter pilot a fair chance.

By "fair chance" you mean almost guaranteed to win.

[kvuo75]

consider:

there is more than one base on any given map.

one set of buffs doesn't take out all the FH's in one pass.

and yet again, buffs are basically sitting ducks when properly attacked.

(sticking up for hangar bangers and I haven't dropped a bomb on a hangar in probably 5 years)

[Xavier]

Bombers dropping hangars impedes one side from upping, while shooting down bombers does nothing to impede more buffs from coming in.

As long as I know, shooting down fighters doesn't impede more fighters to come either  . But dropping bomber hangars has the exact same effect as dropping fighter hangars: preventing those planes from taking off. Except that you only need one or two strafing passes to kill ords and you're already leaving the bombers on the ground. But doing that would take away precious seconds of the real fight, of course  

I'm confident that I can now rephrase your current (and most of your past) wishes:

MAKE BOMBERS EASIER TO KILL


Please say that it was just another sarcastic post and let us all move on 

[lunatic1]

to skuzzy--i just noticed th OP did not say i wish to get rid of tool shedding---it looks more like a demand....and this thread should be locked and sent to the o-club---my 2 cents

[BnZs]

As long as I know, shooting down fighters doesn't impede more fighters to come either  . But dropping bomber hangars has the exact same effect as dropping fighter hangars: preventing those planes from taking off. Except that you only need one or two strafing passes to kill ords and you're already leaving the bombers on the ground. But doing that would take away precious seconds of the real fight, of course  

Seconds to fly to an enemy base? I was unaware any aircraft in the game had hyperdrive. And again, I don't pay a subscription fee for a MMO combat game to spend my time shooting at buildings instead of other player controlled machines.

I'm confident that I can now rephrase your current (and most of your past) wishes:

MAKE BOMBERS EASIER TO KILL

My OP had nothing to do with changing bombers in any way. All your points having been dismissed logically, you resort to bald-faced lying.

Please say that it was just another sarcastic post and let us all move on  

If it were a sarcastic post I would have used the sarcasm sign to indicate so. Seems to be necessary to overtly say it, the general level of wit being what it is on this board.  

[BnZs]

to skuzzy--i just noticed th OP did not say i wish to get rid of tool shedding---it looks more like a demand....and this thread should be locked and sent to the o-club---my 2 cents

Oh, that is just delicious. "This guy disagrees with me and can explain clearly why I'm wrong-SILENCE HIM!"

Maybe if you spent some of those 150 hours a week you spend playing the game studying logic instead, you could come up with something better than this.

Then again, those hours don't seem to have done you much good in playing the game either...

[BnZs]

By "fair chance" you mean almost guaranteed to win.

The heavy buffs have what you call a top turret, which can be brought to bear unless the angle of the dive is absolutely pristine. Also one will be subject to the arc of the fire of the ball turret as one dives beneath the bomber on such a vertical pass.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Two more retorts:

Retort #9: STFU with yer fancy "lawgic"
Retort #10 (a modification of the "you suck at killing bombers" retort): You want to make bombers easier to kill

Guys, this isn't that tough. The proposal on the table relates strictly to the FH and whether or not you can disable fighter upping by bombing same.

That said, yes, the tactic of vertically diving on bombers is pretty effective, especially if you're using some kind of low-velocity shell that drops a lot (like the 30 mil). I still remember how surprised I was first time I tried that with a Ghay-4. Aligned with gravity, that 30mil has nothing but drop - but no curvature in its trajectory, which makes life easy. The problem is time, of course. Every time I get shot down by bombers I always curse myself for having rushed it. 3-9 line isn't bad either, but you can see retrun fire from the top or waists. The HO... depends on the bomber, but I wouldn't advise it on the 17G or any of the 24s. Even the Lancs have some peashooters up there. Good thing the pilot typically has o jump around in there.

Speaking of drop, I saw some idiot on the country channel writing some tripe about how the bigger bullets/shells drop more because they're heavier. I know most of you guys know better. Parabolic motion: constant accel in the grav field... That accel is mass independent, as demonstrated by whoever that dude was who demonstrated that, for an identical drag profile, two varying masses while have the exact same accel, velocity, and position when dropped at the same time from the same height. I'm shocked to see that kind of ignorance in game, given that I thought we got past that some time during the enlightenment. Come to think, it was probably Zack trying to gull some morons so that he could later get their checking account numbers by means of the promise of a cash package. He's good at that kind of stuff, though he has real disdain for using candy vans to lure minors.

[lunatic1]

Ok bnzs you know itwasn't per week--it is per month. But is so funny,your trying to logic on a computer game--that you only play 16 to 20 hours per tour--and since you play so little of this game why do you care to make hangers indestructable..i'm not the only player that spends alot of time playing here.why do you want to spoil other peoples fun when you are hardly ever on?

[BnZs]

Ok bnzs you know itwasn't per week--it is per month. But is so funny,your trying to logic on a computer game--that you only play 16 to 20 hours per tour--and since you play so little of this game why do you care to make hangers indestructable..i'm not the only player that spends alot of time playing here.why do you want to spoil other peoples fun when you are hardly ever on?

And yet I manage to be better at the game than you by virtually every measurable statistic, despite actually occasionally doing other things with my time.

For instance, we both appear to like the P-51D. Actually I like it, and you appear to have a fetish for it, being virtually the only thing you have a2a kills in last tour. I have 28 kills to 4 deaths in the thing last tour. You have 202 kills in it to 196 deaths.

Now at this point you're going to accuse me of gaming my statistics through timidity. However, doing this inevitably causes one's kph to plummet. So obviously my kills per hour must by something shockingly low, on the order of 1.48...wait, nope, that's you.

[BnZs]

I'm shocked to see that kind of ignorance in game, given that I thought we got past that some time during the enlightenment.

When I informed a well-known and beloved vet that his assertion "The pony turns better at high speed!" was wrong because turn rate is defined by speed and G and in AH all "pilots" are under the same G limit, he proceeded to "laugh" at me, or at least type about laughing in the text buffer.