Author Topic: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?  (Read 10283 times)

Offline ARSNishi

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2014, 04:59:20 PM »
Truer words are rarely spoken.  Amazes me to this day how some blame the other guy for pulling the trigger when they make a mistake. Its the MA, not the DA.  If you feel like adhering to a code in the MA, fine.   Just don't bank on the other guy having the same viewpoint or whine when it turns out they don't.  

Take the shot if the other guy is dumb enough to give one to you.  Guess he will be more careful next time.  Or not.
really Fulcrum?   Have you read anything I wrote? Or are you just taking the sycophantic route?  Plain and simple....  no blame was given, no whine was recorded... only perceived.   Was it my fault?  I've said nothing to the contrary.  Rather I admitted to giving him an easy kill.  Fact is, Skyrr shouldve added one more option to this threads title....  nonexistent SA...... because in this particular case, the film bears this fact out.....  straight and level flying.... no one at the stick.... no attempt to evade.... none of my normal MO of H2H avoidance.   I find this whole thing laughable.... that Skyrr felt the need to show off an incredibly easy unchallenged kill.... shows what a Stuart Smalley he is.   He's good enough, he's smart enough.... and darn it Fulcrum and Vraciu like him!

« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 05:04:00 PM by ARSNishi »

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Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2014, 05:23:20 PM »
It seems like those like Skyyrr, manawar, etc usually have the most fragile egos, or at least ulterior motives to their timid flying. Rarely do you see them just take the shot, and when whining on 200 ensues, stay out of it.

A simple "sorry man, just flying to survive. I'll take any shot." would head much of it off.  Instead, it's "lol, it's your fault. You *accepted my ho, didn't maneuver to avoid my pick while already engaged, had poor SA, insert meaningless and irrelevant stock phrase*."  Or "quit whining, 6v1 is totally fair; it's your fault for not always brining 5 of your squadies with you, regardless of time of day, or not flying at 25k instead of my 20k, etc."

There's a few, like 2cmex, who seem to genuinely just be out to be as successful as possible by any means possible, but they seem to be the exceptions. The rest look to be either trying to build bulwarks against the reality of their own suckage, trolling to piss people off, or both.

Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2014, 06:46:48 PM »

There's a few, like 2cmex, who seem to genuinely just be out to be as successful as possible by any means possible, but they seem to be the exceptions. The rest look to be either trying to build bulwarks against the reality of their own suckage, trolling to piss people off, or both.

You should give 2cmex a quick try in the DA sometimes  :D

Players who actually suck don't piss anyone off or attract any attention. It is only when one kills other players that the  :mad: begins to flow.

I have noticed a pattern: Every single really amazing shot in this game draws a lot of rage, whether it is Bruv, 2cmex, Skyyr, whatever. Probably because they aren't giving other players the "fight" they want, IOW they aren't missing shots and allowing the other guy to reverse. They are simply killing them without much maneuvering, and people more governed by emotions find this frustrating. Those of us governed by reason still feel frustration, but we realize that we can't very well criticize others for playing the game well.
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Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2014, 06:56:23 PM »
You should give 2cmex a quick try in the DA sometimes  :D

Players who actually suck don't piss anyone off or attract any attention. It is only when one kills other players that the  :mad: begins to flow.

I have noticed a pattern: Every single really amazing shot in this game draws a lot of rage, whether it is Bruv, 2cmex, Skyyr, whatever. Probably because they aren't giving other players the "fight" they want, IOW they aren't missing shots and allowing the other guy to reverse. They are simply killing them without much maneuvering, and people more governed by emotions find this frustrating. Those of us governed by reason still feel frustration, but we realize that we can't very well criticize others for playing the game well.

Skyyrr is obviously out to either build up his ego, or troll. That's the entire purpose of this thread. That he apparently is making a big deal over a rather innocuous comment only reinforces that.


Now I accept that they're playing the game "well" from their own perspective. From the "let's promote combat and dogfights" perspective, they are not.

I haven't even seen Skyyrr in the game, I have no personal problem with his flying. However, from what I've seen so far of his flying on film and his attitude here, a particular quote from President Obama comes to mind.

"He's a love muffin. He's talented, but he's still a love muffin"

Offline mechanic

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2014, 06:56:29 PM »
Was that really a good shot? Most two weekers could have made that shot. Most of them would have made it a kill not just a wounding too.

meh...
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Offline GhostCDB

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2014, 07:02:57 PM »
Accusations of "h2h," "HO," "skillless," and such ensued after shooting down the encountered aircraft, so I thought I'd consult the intelligible masses here. What would the majority of you consider this shot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCiFRJqJ8KU

Consider:

1. The target clearly had no guns solution
2. The target clearly had time to maneuver out of plane
3. The shot was made from 215-225* deflection (i.e. 35-45* from head-on), making it impossible to be an actual head-on, h2h, etc. type of shot by definition.

What say you?

 :lol

Skyyr the last time I was head-on with you, it was a "chicken" match. You had ALL intentions in HO'ing me, had I not turned my nose it would have been a HO or a ram whichever came first. Then the first thing you yell is "it was a deflection shot". haha I can't be bothered by even watching the film.

 :rolleyes:
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Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2014, 07:08:58 PM »
:lol

Skyyr the last time I was head-on with you, it was a "chicken" match. You had ALL intentions in HO'ing me, had I not turned my nose it would have been a HO or a ram whichever came first. Then the first thing you yell is "it was a deflection shot". haha I can't be bothered by even watching the film.

 :rolleyes:

The entire BBS will tell you how easy HOs are to avoid.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Zerstorer

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2014, 07:15:32 PM »
really Fulcrum?   Have you read anything I wrote? Or are you just taking the sycophantic route?  Plain and simple....  no blame was given, no whine was recorded... only perceived.   Was it my fault?  I've said nothing to the contrary.  Rather I admitted to giving him an easy kill.  Fact is, Skyrr shouldve added one more option to this threads title....  nonexistent SA...... because in this particular case, the film bears this fact out.....  straight and level flying.... no one at the stick.... no attempt to evade.... none of my normal MO of H2H avoidance.   I find this whole thing laughable.... that Skyrr felt the need to show off an incredibly easy: unchallenged kill.... shows what a Stuart Smalley he is.   He's good enough, he's smart enough.... and darn it Fulcrum and Vraciu like him!



Nishi:

None, and I mean N O N E,  of my commentary was directed at you personally or meant to imply or critique your actions or in-actions. My comments reflect my attitude in towards the "I got HOed! You ended the fight too soon you dishonorable no talent dirtbag! You know I would totally stomp you a new mudhole if you gave me a chance" crowd.

If a pilot dies by HO in the MA its HIS or HER fault. Period. This has ALWAYS been my attitude and always will be.  It is also the attitude of at least one member of your own squad.

Please stop construing my comments as being directed at you or a sycophantic defence of Skyyr.  I realize you and Skyyr have a history going back to FA but that doesn't matter to me. If your roles were reversed and you had been the OP for this thread with Skyyr responding I would not have hesitated to make the same post.

:salute sir. Good to see you back. Good hunting.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 08:29:05 PM by Zerstorer »
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Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2014, 07:28:39 PM »
The entire BBS will tell you how easy HOs are to avoid.

Doesn't make them any less cheap, especially 1v1.

Offline morfiend

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2014, 07:34:10 PM »
Was that really a good shot? Most two weekers could have made that shot. Most of them would have made it a kill not just a wounding too.

meh...


  Not sure I could make that shot but I'm not a very good shot to begin with!

   I wouldnt call it a HO,infact I wish players would refrain from using that term and call it a John Wayne merge,you know where you come in guns a blazing!

     I use the term acute frontal attack since it's an attack from the front at less than 90 degrees. Of an AFA if you need an acronym......


  YMMV!





    :salute

Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2014, 09:00:05 PM »
Doesn't make them any less cheap, especially 1v1.

"Cheap" is a meaningless pejorative being used in place of logic.

The entire BBS will tell you that HOs are 1. Easy to avoid and 2. Allow you to easily get a positional advantage over the HOer. Therefore, you should thank someone for HOing you and making things easy on you, and feel a bit silly if you get hit by one, since all dogma teaches us that HOs are easy to avoid.

Furthermore, HOing is absolutely fair. They have a chance to shoot, and so do you, right? Situations where one dives on another plane's six give much less chance to the opponent (especially if the attacker is in a much more maneuverable plane), yet no one bats an eye.

"But BnZs, what if they have an enormous firepower advantage?"
What of it? No one bats an eye when people fly fighters that have an enormous turn-rate advantage over most.

"But BnZs, what if he has a firepower advantage AND the skill to hit me on the HO nearly every time?"
Now one is effectively complaining because the opponent has skill in the gunnery aspect of the game. As well complain because the other guy can do a really neat scissors.

BTW, if we make all shots from in front of the 3/9 line verboten, it will effectively disable energy fighters from being able to kill much-better turning fighters, because such fighters (like a Zero) can nearly always point their nose somewhere near the E fighter whenever they want, if not directly on it.

The following film is a decent example of that. This fellow is pretty lethal in that F4U-4 against planes that cannot match its vertical capacity, but against a K4 he has nothing to offer, even though a Kurt wouldn't normally be considered a match for a 4-Hog. First there are the repeated dive-aways at high speed. When terra firma puts an end to the dive-away and the Kurt continues to maintain pressure without foolishly entering a slow speed contest with the Hog, the Hog attempts the uber-skilled move of pulling back on the stick really hard to try the face shot, which the Kurt, packing a 30mm, gladly accepts.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/qq6cqyah49xthg4/Cuervo_0018.ahf


(Spitfires especially tend to "defend" by pulling back on the stick really hard to point the nose at you. Oh yeah, that's uber-skilled right there. When face with this, I frequently "embrace death" as a samurai would say, and Ho/ram them right back. I consider it a lesson taught.)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 09:32:17 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline LCADolby

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2014, 09:24:49 PM »
The entire BBS will tell you that HOs are 1. Easy to avoid

Not I.

A determined HO is pretty tricky to avoid.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2014, 09:29:57 PM »
Not I.

A determined HO is pretty tricky to avoid.

In those cases then I would have to consider HOing to be an intelligent tactic, if one has a massive firepower advantage and good aim, especially when the HOer's plane is at a severe maneuverability disadvantage versus the opposition.

With my usual planes and aim of course, HOing will never be an intelligent tactic for me, merely a vengeful one. :t

« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 09:33:32 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »
The whole point of the thread was for the OP to justify the shot he took.

Watch the film, it starts with the enemy in the up.forward view for a few seconds, then it is in the front view all the way up until the shot. This means the OP is diving. Check his indicator and you can see he is diving the whole time. He went for the HO, he never had any other intention to do anything else. In the 10+ second he has diving on the enemy and going for his HO he could have easily passed down the side passing parallel to the enemies flight path stay a few hundred feet wide and using a high-yo with a roll to come up over the top and drop on the enemy's 6.

He didn't, and this is the reputation he is building for himself. As he is called out more and more on his "favorite" move he tries to justify himself to the community with posts like this one.
What ever dude. Those of us who know better, know better.  ;)

Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2014, 09:36:47 PM »
"Cheap" is a meaningless pejorative being used in place of logic.

The entire BBS will tell you that HOs are 1. Easy to avoid and 2. Allow you to easily get a positional advantage over the HOer. Therefore, you should thank someone for HOing you and making things easy on you, and feel a bit silly if you get hit by one, since all dogma teaches us that HOs are easy to avoid.

Furthermore, HOing is absolutely fair. They have a chance to shoot, and so do you, right? Situations where one dives on another plane's six give much less chance to the opponent (especially if the attacker is in a much more maneuverable plane), yet no one bats an eye.

"But BnZs, what if they have an enormous firepower advantage?"
What of it? No one bats an eye when people fly fighters that have an enormous turn-rate advantage over most.

"But BnZs, what if he has a firepower advantage AND the skill to hit me on the HO nearly every time?"
Now one is effectively complaining because the opponent has skill in the gunnery aspect of the game. As well complain because the other guy can do a really neat scissors.

BTW, if we make all shots from in front of the 3/9 line verboten, it will effectively disable energy fighters to kill much-better turning fighters, because such fighters (like a Zero) can nearly always point their nose somewhere near the E fighter if they want, if not directly on it.

The following film is a good example of that. This fellow is pretty lethal in that F4U-4 against planes that cannot match its vertical capacity, but against a K4 he has nothing to offer, even though a Kurt wouldn't normally be considered a match for a 4-Hog. First there are the repeated dive-aways at high speed. When terra firma puts an end to the dive-away and the Kurt continues to maintain pressure without foolishly entering a slow speed contest with the Hog, the Hog attempts the uber-skilled move of pulling back on the stick really hard to try the face shot, which the Kurt, packing a 30mm, gladly accepts.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/qq6cqyah49xthg4/Cuervo_0018.ahf


(Spitfires especially tend to "defend" by pulling back on the stick really hard to point the nose at you. Oh yeah, that's uber-skilled right there. When face with this, I frequently "embrace death" as a samurai would say, and Ho/ram them right back. I consider it a lesson taught.)

First off, HO'ing had an element of randomness, given bullet randomization. Skyyrr could be literally the worst cartoon pilot ever, literally unable to outmaneuver the supply convoys, and still get a kill on me by hitting my pilot. I've had this type of thing happen before, in the same manner as I've killed things with half-aimed fire at D900. It doesn't make me good, it makes me lucky.

It requires no skill as a pilot, only skill as a marksman. Especially 1v1 and without any clearly and dominatingly superior aircraft, I take it only as an admission of inferiority. If you do not maneuver when is not suicide to do so, I thank you for the complement.

Second, a HO can be looked at as a kick in the balls. It's generally considered a really toejamty thing to do, even in a fight. It's cripplingly painful if it connects squarely, pisses you off if it misses, takes no particular skill to do, ab you can do it right back. That doesn't mean that you're not an utter and complete arse-wipe if you do it and have other options.

In that sense, it's definitely a cheap move. Little skill required, chance at knocking your opponent out of the fight before he can maul you with superior skill, dicey. It's almost the text book definition of cheap. You see it right next to abusing exploits on console games.

And really, it's only a HO from maybe the10:30-1:30 position. And that's being generous. It's not like we're saying a full half of the aircraft is off limits, as you are ham-fistedly attempting to imply.


Fact is Skyyrr could have engaged in a maneuvering fight, and wouldn't have been consigning himself to death. Especially if he is as good as he would have us believe. He actively chose to take the easy road. This means either he is lazy, which is a mark against his person, or the other road is too hard for him, in which case I would direct him to our marvelous trainers. They can give him a run-down of BFM and ACM, give him a few practice dogfights, maybe go easy on the kid.


In either case, it is through a fault in himself, not in his opponent.



Feel free to fly as you feel is best. Just don't come to the boards trying to justify something you already know is generally frowned upon in an effort to shield your ego from reality.