Author Topic: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol  (Read 3530 times)

Offline Cthulhu

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Offline danny76

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 09:22:35 AM »
Anybody wanna say "I told you so?"

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/

Bound to happen, British army replaced it's Browning Hi-Power's with Sig p226's, which seemed like an absolute waste of money to me, to go from a proven and hard wearing, solid design for another 9mm, followed by the Glock 17, also in 9mm :bhead
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2014, 09:31:59 AM »
The entire issue is kinda silly. Using ball ammo, most of all, the differences between the various pistol calibers are so small we shouldnt even be thinking of a change. Even with high end ammo handguns are pretty poor stoppers. You either hit the guy in the boiler room or you dont, and even then, handguns are not very effecient.

Better off sticking with the 9mm.
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Offline danny76

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 09:38:42 AM »
Not disputing the calibre in the slightest, I took the Browning to 3 Brigade Pistol Championship wins. Never got on with the Sig at all and the Glock is truly horrible. My point was the waste of money. Pistols are rarely issued, and see even rarer usage in combat environments. I believe that a sniper from 5th Anglian regiment got a couple of kills with one in Afghan a few years ago. I agree that the differences in pistol calibres available in military terms currently are insignificant. Until the military decide to go with a round that has a much higher energy transfer, the question of calibre is a waste of time. :old:
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 10:19:05 AM »
I figured this would provoke a lot of opinions.  :D This debate goes all the way back to the Miami FBI shootout. I always thought the military standardized on the 9 for two reasons... NATO commonality and performance against armor. Since shot placement is key with a low energy pistol rd, it seems prudent to go with a low to medium caliber, higher energy rd like 357 Sig or one of the rds specifically made to defeat armor. You guys remember the .224 BOZ? That cartridge looks like a paint can necked down to seat a straight pin.  :)
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2014, 10:38:59 AM »
How many times has the Army tried to replace the M-16 and failed?  This is just going to be a huge waste of money.  Lets just all make out checks to the Department of Defense for about $1000 and tell them to spend it however they want.
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2014, 10:50:06 AM »
Not disputing the calibre in the slightest, I took the Browning to 3 Brigade Pistol Championship wins. Never got on with the Sig at all and the Glock is truly horrible. My point was the waste of money. Pistols are rarely issued, and see even rarer usage in combat environments. I believe that a sniper from 5th Anglian regiment got a couple of kills with one in Afghan a few years ago. I agree that the differences in pistol calibres available in military terms currently are insignificant. Until the military decide to go with a round that has a much higher energy transfer, the question of calibre is a waste of time. :old:
The Glock is truly horrible at what?

Offline danny76

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2014, 11:08:22 AM »
The Glock is truly horrible at what?

 The 17 9milly feels horrible to shoot, I am talking from only my experience but from the get go it it felt less workmanlike compared to the nicely hewn hunk of Browning. I could never manage the same results with the 17 as I did with other handguns, always felt it was somehow twisting in my hand between shots and was never quite as intuitive to shoot comfortably.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2014, 11:32:46 AM »
Anybody wanna say "I told you so?"

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/

Strangely coincidental timing with HK's VP9 release.
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Offline cpxxx

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2014, 11:37:25 AM »
The article itself makes the point that going to a bigger round doesn't necessarily make it better. When you have to use a pistol it's going to be close in and you're going to have fire more than once no matter what the calibre. Is it better to have more ammo or more killing power?

I fired the Browning hi power in the military. I found it very accurate and we were trained to fire it one handed only. It could take 13 rounds in the magazine. The comparable M1911 only took 7 rounds. I know which one I'd prefer.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 11:39:56 AM by cpxxx »

Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2014, 11:48:02 AM »
The 17 9milly feels horrible to shoot, I am talking from only my experience but from the get go it it felt less workmanlike compared to the nicely hewn hunk of Browning. I could never manage the same results with the 17 as I did with other handguns, always felt it was somehow twisting in my hand between shots and was never quite as intuitive to shoot comfortably.

If you learned to shoot with the HP and used it for a long time, then transitioning to a Glock will naturally result in worse performance for quite some time. Especially since the Glock is a natural pointer (like the Luger) while the HP and Sig are not. Your whole arm posture changes.
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2014, 11:59:49 AM »
If you learned to shoot with the HP and used it for a long time, then transitioning to a Glock will naturally result in worse performance for quite some time. Especially since the Glock is a natural pointer (like the Luger) while the HP and Sig are not. Your whole arm posture changes.
Though we all have our personal preferences, I tend to agree. I've shot a Glock 21 now for 20 yrs or so. It's as easy as pointing your finger.
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Offline smoe

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2014, 01:09:01 PM »
I wonder if they will come up with a .40 or .45 short, similar to the 9mm & 380.

Offline Gman

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2014, 01:20:40 PM »
The pistol's use in the military, or most anyplace else, is typically as a defensive weapon, or a secondary weapon that is faster to transition to during an emergency reload/stoppage with your rifle during CQB.  Reliability and longevity are the two most important factors IMO and pretty much anyone who ever taught me who was somebody of note said the same- the calibers most common to combat pistols are all within pretty close parameters in terms of stopping power, although the 357 Sig does have pretty good results with the Air Marshalls (pretty much a 100% kill ratio), shot placement and training is a major factor in that statistic IMO, as their training and continuous skill maintenance (at least used to) ensure pretty high hit ratios.

Danny, the trigger possibly in the Glock you were using was either a factory 8 lb or worse, even 12lb or New York triggers are known to get into the military pistols.  If you tried one with a 3.5lb discon/trigger that was tuned up, it would have shot a lot better for you I would wager.  I shot a BHP for years as well, and worked for Sig Saeur Academy for many years, shooting many different types of pistols.  For me the Sig 226, our flagship, shoots and points badly for me due to the high sightline and general shape - it just points very uninstinctively for me, and I have to hunt for the sights constantly.  Sig 220 or 1911s, no problem with that at all.  Everybody has different body mechanics, so the best bet for the military is go with something that is as common as possible, and reliable as possible.

The 92F/M9 always has had reliability issues, and rarely get to that 20k service life count without some sort of failure.  Locking lugs shearing off being a big one, among many others.  Talk to any Beretta armorer and you'll get the same story almost verbatim.  Other pistols have issues as well, polymer framed pistols tend to be outlasted by steel frame, but there is cost and weight penalties with that as well.  IMO the US military would be best served by a pistol with ammo already in common usage (9mm or .45) and made with a steel frame.  After that, just pick the ones that get through the tests with the highest round count, and best/simplest controls and manufacture combined.  

When I did PSD work our company bought G19s, and they worked well enough, and we also had the option to carry what we wanted, so I sometimes used a 1911 as I've shot them for years and just prefer them, plus working for a company that was run by mainly x US Army guys who had shot nothing BUT 1911 for years, it was very common.  

The talk about a "harder hitting" pistol though, I just don't see it. Not unless you want to get into specialized ammunition.  It's out there.  10 years ago I had 75gr +++p frangible stuff doing warp speed out of a G19 barrel, we're talking going through both panels of older 2a vests we hung on the range.  Also very very hard on plastic framed guns, 2000 round service life expectancy with a Glock pistol, however it WAS very lethal compared to most pistol ammo.  You just can't have it both ways IMO, you either have a lot of noise, recoil, flash, and wear to go with that lethality, or you don't, and have common ammo.  Common ammo is probably the only way the regular units can go in the military.  Large frame revolvers are built strong to take those 357 and 44 mag and even higher loads.  Put those into an auto though - well, I've seen Desert Eagles, AMT and Automags discombubulate with great frequency on the range, with not a lot of rounds put through them.  The nature of the semi auto pistol with that huge load tends to break things, ask any range that rents out such pistols how long they last, and the answer is not long.

The new VP9 HK pistol was mentioned, however in my experience few if any polymer framed guns last much longer than that 20k service life expectancy from the factory.  Glocks, Sigs, HKs, you name it, if it has a plastic frame, typically some sort of malfunction, often catastrophic or at least very expensive and time consuming to repair is in the near future around 20k.  This is unacceptable IMO for a military general service pistol.  There is no reason that number can't be doubled or even tripled, and a steel frame pistol built to be reliable and long lasting is a capability many manufacturers do posses.  It's time the US military chose one, or put out a competition for builders to make one.  

edit - Smoe, the 45 GAP and other various calibers already exist, but IMO to go to a non standard round would be too expensive for such a large batch of pistols.  9mm or 45 will likely end up being the caliber of choice in this spending environment with defense.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 01:27:50 PM by Gman »

Offline smoe

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2014, 02:37:25 PM »
I was thinking a short .40 or .45 cal with a shorter length, reduced powder charge/bullet weight/recoil/velocity/noise/flash could be a solution.

The .45 is known as a man stopper because it has a large diameter and lower velocity, so it has a significant punch when hitting a human target. The 9mm on the other hand is faster and a smaller round, so it can zip through flesh without a person feeling like they have been hit, especially when the adrenalin is pumping.

I am thinking of a .45 in a 130-150 gr weight mainly for reduced recoil. Keep it subsonic so it is felt by the target and don't worry so much about penetration. Although, I am wondering if police like the 9mm round for it ability to go through car doors and windows. Since the person which they may be shooting at will more than likely try to escape in car. However, the military has different set of conditions for which they would require a man stopper bullet.

The .45 GAP was made to be shorter length (about .2" or 5mm shorter) than a .45 ACP, but with similar performance. The .45 GAP was probably designed to have a double stack magazine with a compacted grip than what a .45 ACP would require.

Just my 2 cents.