Author Topic: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol  (Read 3553 times)

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2014, 09:41:20 AM »
If you want a pistol that is significantly different than the M9 or Glock or whatever, then the ammunition is key. Something like the FN Five-Seven or a similar modern pistol round with body-armor defeating performance. Once you accept the fact that no pistol calibre is going to kill anyone quickly without careful shot placement, the real issue becomes penetration.

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The 5.7x28mm FN round even has 30% less recoil than a typical 9mm.

Exactly!
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2014, 10:03:48 AM »
As I was saying, for now with the tech we have, velocity is the primary factor.  If there is ever a move towards some sort of higher performing projectile, for example exploding rounds or a new spin on the blended metal ideas, we're stuck with the current method really.

A combination of both would be perfect for smaller weapons - something that is moving fast enough to penetrate light body armor and other barriers, but also delivers some sort of explosive force once inside the target.  A larger diameter and sized round might be helpful in that regard, in order to have more of a charge inside of it, possibly.  IMO a 357 sig type round, that sort of size, a 115 to 147 gr bullet moving at say 13 or 1400 fps with a technology that has bullets exploding once they penetrate a ways - that IMO would be the most effective type of round out there for a pistol sized weapon.    There would never again be worries, charts, and talk of the "lethality" or terminal ballistics, since the temporary and permanent wound channel would be the same thing - a huge hole formed almost instantly - after a kaboom inside the target, and a hit anywhere on the T line or the torso, within 6 inches of the cone of vulnerability in the human body would pretty much always be almost instantly fatal. 

I realize there are treaties about such rounds, but there is always ways around that, and the world we live in now nobody seems to follow or care about promises made on paper anyway.  IMO this is the direction that should be taken in the next decade or two for all types of projectile small arms weapons, and I know there are people working on these ideas already.

What you're describing is very much like the old B Mark VI rd the Brit's developed for their .303's. Assuming manufacturing costs weren't too high, it would probably be a viable solution. The lower density (and hence mass) of the explosive core would give the higher velocity (Energy) you need to penetrate light armor, and the terminal effects would be lethal like you described.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2014, 03:01:37 PM »

I may be wrong, but I don't remember anyone ever saying that the .45 ACP lacked stopping power.  Ball, soft point, hollow point, whatever.

Downsizing to the Euro cartridge was a mistake.  Most US shooters knew it at the time (except for the 9 mm big-magazine fans).  Glad they're taking steps to rectify the error.

- oldman

The .45 ACP lacks stopping power. Handguns in general lack stopping power. The one possible exception Ive seen has been a .357 mag wheelgun with 125 grn JHPs. The copper put the barrel of it to a armed robbers chest and literally blew chunks of his heart out his back.

But was it the caliber? The gun? The pressures of the magnum up against the target? The ammo type? And does it matter? No handgun is very efficient at stopping anyone unless the rounds are very well placed. Even then Ive seen criminals do some prolific things after getting shot even after good shot placement. Magnify all this when you combine combat conditions with it. Something has already gone seriously wrong if you have a handgun in your hand in a war.

No possible alternative to the 9mm will give you a cost effective edge if your shot placement is off. If your shot placement is on then you dont need anything but a 9mm. A higher pressure round will cost more both in terms of ammo and training and in unit replacement due to higher pressures. A 9mm is a gun EVERYONE can shoot. We have a lot of females and kids less familiar with guns joining up then many of you are. Just cause a lot of you can shoot the .357 SIG well doesnt mean it would be easy to train up tens of thousands of troops in just a few weeks with the round. Or the 10mm. "The 10mm"?

Had a 17 kid shot in the lung with a .40 once. He ran 2 blocks before he dropped and he lost his blood pressure in the ambulance. I figure he's History right? So who do I see on the corner 3 weeks later minus a lung? Handguns just arent very efficient. We've had to many "fire 2/watch the BG drop/admire you shots" incidents where the bad guy doesnt do what he is supposed to which isnt very admirable. One guy we shot 19 times with a 9mm, numerous in the chest, and he still lived and fired back. The guy is alive today.

Starting with 9mm/.38 cal shot placement becomes everything. As does shooting until the BG goes down or you hear "click". The 9mm is a perfectly adequate self defense round when your trained up to be accurate. I carry it almost everyday. Im surprised the Military is even having this discussion.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2014, 03:59:32 PM »
... Or a gunship.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2014, 07:25:50 PM »
One of the first real training classes I ever took was from Jeff Cooper long ago.  He told us that the worst handgun in the world is still 10x better than the next defensive easy to carry option down the list, ie a knife, pepper spray, baton, whatever.  He was right.  He also said it still sucked as an offensive weapon, and for anything other than an easy to carry and conceal emergency defensive weapon.  He was right again.

Like I said earlier and Rich was alluding to as well, the difference between all the major semi auto calibers that are simple and easy enough for all average joe's and women in the military to actually shoot and control is negligible.  A couple hundred foot lbs here or there.  Yes, the magnum revolvers due to their high pressure and high velocity loads will carry the day a lot more often than a semi auto 9, 45, 357, 40, or whatever. 

I agree that the whole premise of the article, to find a "harder hitting" handgun is a ridiculous waste of money.  A more reliable and long lasting handgun, sure, valid reason and direction to proceed.  I can't think of a single person who has been in a gunfight who would raise there hand and say they would choose to take a pistol into another fight if they could have a rifle, or other shoulder supported type weapon.  That isn't to say a pistol isn't important, or doesn't have a place, it does, but only as an emergency backup system, or at best, like Jeff Cooper told me long ago, a "better than nothing, or other options" defensive system to carry about your person.  It beats no firearm, that's for certain, but spending piles of time and money to find solutions that just don't exist - well, pretty typical of the defense contractor and procurement system nowadays I guess.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2014, 08:43:07 PM »
Well Gman... There are some issues that can be addressed. While "legacy" pistol calibres are still effective against terrorists/insurgents/rebels/freedom fighters/whatever since they're mostly unarmored, modern armies are carrying more and better body armor. Even second rate and third world armies are armoring up. Penetration is perhaps the most important factor in selecting a new pistol calibre, or else we're quickly facing the reality that we'll need to shoot the enemy in the face to have any real chance at a kill shot.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 08:47:12 PM by GScholz »
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Offline Gman

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2014, 09:15:41 PM »
Quote
Penetration is perhaps the most important factor in selecting a new pistol calibre, or else we're quickly facing the reality that we'll need to shoot the enemy in the face to have any real chance at a kill shot.

Ok, but these troops getting armor - even the best penetrating pistol round available in a service type pistol, the 5.7, will NOT go through level 4 armor, or any of the plates/carrier systems being used now, and is only marginal at best vs soft armor 3a or better (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/16/5-7x28mm-body-armor/).  Like I said, the whole "harder hitting handgun" round thing is fellatios IMO, as even that argument, that future soldiers will be more armored doesn't matter when even rifle rounds will have a tough time penetrating - what hope does any pistol round have vs that?  None really, for now with current tech being used.  Penetration vs hard armor systems from a pistol velocity round is NOT going to happen, it just can't right now.

These nations aren't putting soft 3 or 3a armor on their troops, it's almost all in the 4 class, with ceramics and steel plates in use.  Every year my company used to send me to the armor vs ammo thing that was held at the former Blackwater range.  I've seen 5.7 shred cockpit doors and all sorts of soft armor, but the stuff like Paracleet, DragonScale, and the dozens of others that even small nations are putting on their troops - no pistol round, and few rifle rounds, are getting through that any longer.  Even AP 308 will be stopped by even the cheaper ceramic plate systems now.  This being the case, expecting a pistol to defeat it is impossible.

Don't get me wrong, 5.7 isn't a bad way to go IMO as it does give you the ability to get through other barriers that 9/45/40/etc can't, like lower class soft armor, other barriers like vehicle doors, and the like.  Against well equipped enemy troops with the armor you're talking about G, it's just as ineffective as the above calibers.

I still think exploding ammo for small arms will be the future, and your armor point is part of the reason I believe this to be true.  Standard rounds won't be very effective anymore due to the armor.  Exploding rounds are another matter, they may not penetrate the plate systems, but the effects from the kaboom will deal damage all over the exposed body.  I know there are treaties like I said, but nobody says boo when an AH64 kills swarms of Taliban with 30mm exploding ammo, do they.  It's only a matter of time due to the race between armor and ammo that we end up going to really advanced projectiles that will either be able to get through the plates (less likely), or do enough blast damage that they don't really matter.  It's already being worked on, a lot.

The data from Iraq and Afghanistan proves this out IMO.  The number of troops killed by direct small arms enemy fire took a huge nose dive compared to past wars due to the armor systems being worn by many NATO troops.  Many that were killed were by IED/blast weapons like VBEDS, IEDS, and RPGs, and other such things, not small arms rounds, and although it did happen, it was far, far less than previous fights as I said.  Well, what is the west to do when the enemy starts wearing the same armor we are?  That means our lethality from projectile small arms weapons is going to take a big nose dive as well, right?  What is the solution to that - are we going to start using vbeds and ieds and rpgs as our primary way of killing the enemy?  Unlikely.  Explosive ammo is really the only solution short of some sort of directed energy weapon, or some wonder projectile that is fast and hard enough to bust through level 4 plates.  Which is in the realm of the possible right now?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:39:42 PM by Gman »

Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2014, 11:02:37 PM »
I think you underestimate the 5.7 and similar modern cartridges. According to FN the 5.7 is capable of penetrating the kevlar vest fielded by the US Army at 300 meters and the US PASGT kevlar helmet at a range of 240 meters. Mind you I have no personal experience with this round, I only go by what I read.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2014, 11:13:47 PM »
Maybe US armor is sheit though... That German helmet sure held up very well!
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Offline Kodiak

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2014, 12:25:28 AM »
With all this said, where do you guys think they'll end up.  Considering they're stuck with ball ammo in the short term I'm guessing they'll go back to the 45, maybe an HK or P220?

Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2014, 12:29:47 AM »
Depends... Who has the most money to spend on brib... I mean "lobbying" ?
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Offline Gman

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2014, 12:55:45 AM »
I've fired thousands of 5.7 rounds vs all kinds of barriers, I don't underestimate or mis-estimate it at all.  You understand what lvl 4 armor is, right?  Ceramic or steel plates, often with soft armor combined into the carrier systems now - again, even AP 5.7 from pistol length bbls at that velocity will NOT get through the plate armor, nor the 3a armor with any regularity.  I've seen many tests from the manufacturers at THE armor vs ammo show every year for 5 years straight where it was put up against everything but the kitchen sink. 

American troops, especially special mission units, aren't using the armor you're talking about, and neither are the Chinese or other potential threats - they're using lvl 4 carrier systems and often have soft armor integrated into the gaps.  And like I said, and showed in just one link of dozens out there, even soft 3a craploa cheap vests will stop AP 5.7 from a pistol length barrel.  Junky would be a great guy to ask about regular infantry forces and how widespread the newer plate systems are that are rated to stop AP 308 rounds, but I know in the near future it will be very widespread.  The USMC has tens of thousands of systems that will stop 30 cal armor piercing, and plans on buying another 80,000 sets in the next couple years.  China is going great guns with armor like this as well.  Again, lvl 4 rating like this means no chance of 5.7 or any handgun caliber outside of maybe some crazy .50 cal AP stuff - and even then I doubt it - ever defeating it.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2014, 01:38:44 AM »
You understand what lvl 4 armor is, right?

Yeah, I wore it for about a year in Bosnia. Mine had ceramic plates front and rear, but they only covered a rather small area of the center mass. Everything else was just level 2. Perhaps level 3 where the layers overlapped. Also, once that ceramic plate takes a hit it shatters (that's how it absorbs the energy) and doesn't offer much resistance to subsequent hits.

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Offline craz07

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2014, 01:57:53 AM »
damz you's ugliez.. :angel:
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2014, 02:00:38 AM »
Don't I know it! And that's 20 years ago!  :uhoh
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