Author Topic: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol  (Read 3542 times)

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2014, 07:51:24 PM »

I've been working on a Paradigm shift rubber bullet concept. If you get hit it makes you completely change your mind about everything. I tested it on Zack and now he likes leather shorts and knockwurst. I last saw him flying away in a Bf109 singing the Deutschlandlied. 
 



I hope you got all those rubber bullets back. No telling what Zack might do with them. :lol
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2014, 10:27:40 PM »
There are piles of vids of cheap 200$ or less plates taking multiple 30 cal rifle hits at point blank range and still stopping them all.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRGpQ6-rz8

I just watched that video you linked to, and as I said the ceramic plate shatters; creating large cavities where the rounds hit that are vulnerable to subsequent hits (which also inadvertently happened in the video resulting in a penetration). And that was my point: With a typical pistol round you might eventually, after many rounds, shatter and penetrate the plate, but you won't penetrate the level 2 or 3a kevlar underneath it. With the 5.7 or similar modern round in a close quarters situation you could put several rounds into the plate and achieve penetration. After the plate has been defeated subsequent hits in the same area can penetrate the kevlar. It's not a miracle round... It is still very underpowered for military applications, but it is decidedly better than legacy calibres. Or?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2014, 10:41:25 PM »
I really dislike this guy as a presenter, but the performance of the MP-7 is undeniable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7TmgyiLoY4
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2014, 10:51:14 PM »
Five-Seven with subsonic ammo vs level 3a armor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A65bLxWH3kc

This is an awesome pistol calibre.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 10:55:34 PM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3731
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2014, 11:29:32 PM »
We're essentially in agreement, all I've been saying is your original statement that 5.7 would be effective for countering modern armor nations like China that you linked pics to wasn't correct.  5.7 is easily the best penetration performing pistol round of standard manufacture and availability, however it still is no match for the cheapest ceramic plate systems, including what the Chinese are and will be using.  Yes the 193 round penetrated that 3a shoulder piece.  The SS190 AP will usually get through 3a.  Again, against the best soft 3a armor you can get, the ball 5.7 doesn't always penetrate, hence DIJ giving it a marginal rating for penetration vs 3a.  The reality is if the military used it, it WOULD be using the illegal for civilians in the USA to own SS190, which would be most times effective vs soft 3a.  This isn't the point, or the one which you initially brought up, that choosing 5.7 because it would be effective vs modern infantry ceramic armor systems.  It isn't.

Most nations are equipping their troops with lvl 4, again, which 5.7 will NOT get through.  Multiple shots in the same place?  That's your plan?   How likely or possible do you think that is?  How many rounds would it take in precisely the same spot to defeat a cheap ceramic plate with 5.7 - I'm wagering double digits, since 762x54 steel core Russian AP will be stopped even with multiple hits on a decent plate.  Again, in that vid I posted, of which there are many, 762 Nato WILL stop several rounds in the plate from point blank range with the cheapest 140$ plates you can get.  High end systems like Paracleet, Scale, etc, can and have stopped multiple hits from various 30 cal rifle rounds, AR500 plates will stop rounds in the same place, there are tests and videos of it taking over 10 hits and not failing.   How many rounds do you think 5.7 will need?  It's ridiculous trying to defend your original supposition by now saying all that's needed is a ton of multiple hits in the precise same spot, and now you're correct, 5.7 will beat a plate armor system.  Is 5.7 the best penetrating standard handgun round out there - yes, probably. Is it one of the better options - again, probably.  Will it defeat the armor which nearly all potential enemies will be wearing in the next 1/2 decade - no.

Believe me, I know how capable it is, I've seen it when it was first coming around being demo'd by the factory reps.  At BW in 2004 they had a new cockpit door that the manufacturer rated against all kinds of pistol ammunition, and they were very surprised when 5.7 defeated it in front of hundreds of people.  It still will not make any difference versus lvl 4 ceramic plate - none.  It is very effective for what it is designed for, beating threats wearing soft armor or getting through other light barriers.  In Canada we don't have a law forbidding the use of SS190 ammo, and I've shot thousands of rounds of it through both the 5.7 FN pistol and the P90 semi auto carbine with a longer barrel than the typical subgun.  I have an AR upper that uses it as well.  It has very controllable recoil, limited flash, excellent accuracy, and amazing penetration.  The controls are awful on the pistol, and IMO a steel framed pistol is what the military needs for longevity and service life - a simple DA/SA 20 round steel framed pistol with standard controls and decocker would be perfect for a "new" military pistol in 5.7 IMO.  

http://www.guns.com/review/2013/12/03/ar500-armor-part-ii-will-defeat-video/

The above plates are cheap, and only lvl 3, and look what it takes to defeat it - 50 cal 750 gr Amax barely broke through, and this is 10 year old tech.  In another decade, our potential threats will have this and more.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 11:52:48 PM by Gman »

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8577
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2014, 12:18:40 AM »
Skyyrr, brags about being American, Flys a European plane.

(Wrong thread dude).

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8577
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2014, 12:22:30 AM »
I hope you got all those rubber bullets back. No telling what Zack might do with them. :lol

Probably make a pie  :old:


Multiple shots in the same place?  That's your plan?  

I should have thought they'd have a sit down behind cover after the first hit to think things through.

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2014, 12:41:35 AM »
Gman, in that video you posted they fired five rounds from the CETME. One skirted the top of the plate and penetrated. Another shot hit the weakened part of the plate (from the two previous shots) and penetrated... Despite the best efforts of the shooter five shots resulted in two accidental penetrations.

And I have never made the claim you're attributing to me. I have never claimed the 5.7 will defeat level 4 armor in a single shot, so let's just leave it at that.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 12:43:16 AM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3731
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2014, 01:59:35 AM »
Yes, and the other plate took several shots and didn't fail.  And those are cheap plates.  Even decent lvl 3 AR500 will take dozens of hits from 762 AP and not fail.  

Quote
While "legacy" pistol calibres are still effective against terrorists/insurgents/rebels/freedom fighters/whatever since they're mostly unarmored, modern armies are carrying more and better body armor. Even second rate and third world armies are armoring up. Penetration is perhaps the most important factor in selecting a new pistol caliber, or else we're quickly facing the reality that we'll need to shoot the enemy in the face to have any real chance at a kill shot.

Quote
I think you underestimate the 5.7 and similar modern cartridges. According to FN the 5.7 is capable of penetrating the kevlar vest fielded by the US Army at 300 meters and the US PASGT kevlar helmet at a range of 240 meters.



The previous posts when you were talking about the 5.7, and then saying this - my point the entire discussion is that THIS point is invalid, as penetration doesn't mean anything with all combat pistol caliber including 5.7, and even many rifle calibers, versus the very armor you brought up.  Again, even the cheapest, crappiest ceramic armor will stop multiple shots per plate before failure in most cases, and decent armor will stop multiple hits in the same spot, as shown in that last video, again, just one of dozens of examples out there.  I agree, even the poorest nations are beginning to armor up, and every serious threat is well on there way and then some.  All I disagreed with is that the primary factor of penetration regarding a pistol caliber is relevant when considering the armor issue, as even AP 30 cal rifle fire is defeated by average to decent armor, which means no pistol caliber is a threat against it, regardless of how well it penetrates and performs.

Quote
With the 5.7 or similar modern round in a close quarters situation you could put several rounds into the plate and achieve penetration
 - No, it can't, not versus anything of decent quality.  If lvl 3 AR500 plates are stopping dozens of 3000fps 150+ gr rifle rounds, and almost stopping a 750gr Amax round after all of that - 5.7 hasn't a prayer, regardless of how many rounds are put into the plate.

Again, it isn't a bad option, but vs modern armored threats, it'll be no more effective than any other pistol round, as soft unarmored areas of the target will have to be struck, and as many others here have stated as well, the existing calibers like 9/40/45/etc will be similarly effective then anyway, as the variance in performance isn't all that much between them. 

« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:09:16 AM by Gman »

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2014, 06:17:11 AM »
How likely do you actually see the possibility that US military has to shoot armored combatants in close quarter fights with secondary armament?

I think it is pretty convincing if the FBI went to .40 S&W (shortened version of .40 auto but not proportionally weaker) and I recall "Tales from the Morque" or what ever it was called that the person, from his experience, preferred 357 Mag or .40 since many people ending in the morque had those projectiles in them, and not many/person.

In turn small, fast projectile will defeat bodyarmor and start rotating thus creating a painful wound, but small projectiles are not really made to kill but to wound, and thus create more emotional stress and logistic problem to enemy by having to move the wounded out of the combat area ASAP. 1 person gets hit and it takes two or three guys out of combat.

So the point seems to be whether or not the opposing combatants will be wearing bodyarmour. In law enforcement branch the choice of .40 is thus pretty obvious but what about military?

-C+

Ed. Found it: http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 06:22:08 AM by Charge »
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2014, 06:57:34 AM »
Maybe this is a good thread to ask:

I've been through a NRA safety course and have gone to the local range several times but admit to being a novice with firearms.  I'm considering perchasing a gun, mostly for fun but also home protection.  So far I've shot a variety of 9mm pistols of various makes (Glock, Sig, etc) but am not sure which way to go.  I will say I did not enjoy the Glock (no offense to anyone...just seemed clunky to me).

So...suggestions?  Keep in mind this will be my first weapon, but likely not the last one I purchase as I am also considering becoming a collector. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline danny76

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2014, 07:43:49 AM »
I would suggest the most important thing to do is to get to a level whereby you are no longer a "novice with firearms".

We are not allowed privately owned handguns in the UK, and I wouldn't presume to tell you which type of weapong would be best for what you want, suffice to say that for fun it would probably be best looking at weapons with cheaper and readily available ammunition.

In terms of home defense I would suggest little says "get off my property" better than the sound of a 12 gauge pump being racked :old:

Coupled with the hitting power of a shotgun I would suggest it would outperform even the very newest handguns in every field bar concealability :old:
"You kill 'em all, I'll eat the BATCO!"
The GFC

"Not within a thousand years will man ever fly" - Wilbur Wright

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2014, 07:58:05 AM »
I would suggest the most important thing to do is to get to a level whereby you are no longer a "novice with firearms".

We are not allowed privately owned handguns in the UK, and I wouldn't presume to tell you which type of weapong would be best for what you want, suffice to say that for fun it would probably be best looking at weapons with cheaper and readily available ammunition.

In terms of home defense I would suggest little says "get off my property" better than the sound of a 12 gauge pump being racked :old:

Coupled with the hitting power of a shotgun I would suggest it would outperform even the very newest handguns in every field bar concealability :old:

Having once had the sound of a 12 gauge pump being racked AT me (long story, but suffice it to say it was a mistake and no one was injured), I agree with you!  My wife, however, might not!  :old:  :D

As for the rest...working on not being a novice i.e. taking classes at the local range, etc.  :aok

Sorry about the privately owned weapons in the UK stuff....that kinda sucks.  I have my own opinions on that topic, but understand the attiude of (some) US citizens differs greatly from that of others in the world.  I also don't want to offend anyone who might have a different opinion.   :salute and thanks for the suggestions!
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2014, 09:22:57 AM »
Once they develop the tech enough to scale it down, rail guns are the future of projectile weapons. Imagine a 31gr 5.7AP round traveling at 6700ft/s.

Right now though, I think the plan is to use them to replace the Mk 110, and a smaller 2kg model with higher velocity as an experimental City. Even just clip an inbound missile with 4lbs going mach 8 or 9, and no more missile.

You're not going to see man-portable rail guns anytime soon. The energy requirements are immense. Remember that conventional ammo brings it's energy with it, so unless you're planning on shooting the bad guy with some weird thermal battery penetrator....

Also, you don't need to clip a missile at Mach 8 to take it out. Our PAC-3 does the same job kinetically only going Mach 3+ just fine.

Finally, all this hyper velocity stuff is not a cure all. Remember that the atmosphere is taking away all that hyper velocity kinetic energy at a prodigious rate. Beyond a certain range, larger slower projectiles retain their energy far better.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 09:34:30 AM by Cthulhu »
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline TheCrazyOrange

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 278
Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2014, 11:55:01 AM »
Maybe this is a good thread to ask:

I've been through a NRA safety course and have gone to the local range several times but admit to being a novice with firearms.  I'm considering perchasing a gun, mostly for fun but also home protection.  So far I've shot a variety of 9mm pistols of various makes (Glock, Sig, etc) but am not sure which way to go.  I will say I did not enjoy the Glock (no offense to anyone...just seemed clunky to me).

So...suggestions?  Keep in mind this will be my first weapon, but likely not the last one I purchase as I am also considering becoming a collector. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

As Danny said, get to where you're not a novice with firearms.

After that, go look for a good 12ga pump. They're reliable, hard hitting, and intimidating.

Also, in a home defense situation, you want to be able to hit him once, and have there be absolutely zero chance he gets back up. You pray you don't have to take anyone down, but when it comes down to it, is the safety of you and your family.