Mustang

[BnZs]

Here is a series of duels I fought with the venerable Flyman92 , in the interest of learning the capabilities of the 109K4 better. Even though I have relatively little experience with this airplane, I gave a marginally decent account of myself, even managing to win a couple. Yet I have also encountered his K4 in my P-51D numerous times, an airplane I have lots of experience flying, and I can't remember a single time when he didn't beat me without too trouble, even when I had an initial energy advantage over his 109. Things like this force me to admit that the P-51D is probably mediocre as far as LWMA airplanes go, much as I'd like to disprove that notion.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/flyzozbdoqjvndl/FlymanK4duels.ahf

[Vraciu]

I have fought against Jugs of all kinds many many times in the MA?   When it gets down to a turn fight they always outrate me in the turn, especially slow.  It is often a stalemate for five or six complete turns but the Jug always gains on me over time. 

[Muzzy]

Wow this thread has generated a lot of interesting debate.

First, just to clarify my own intentions: I'm not learning the Mustang simply to find a better aircraft; I'm learning it so that I can be competent in it whenever the situation calls upon it. I want to be able to fly the 'stang when it's listed in a pickup mission or in scenario or other special events. I also confess a curiosity about the bird because of its historical representation. As such, I am less interested in finding out whether it's a good or mediocre bird as much as I am in finding out how to fly it optimally. Were I to post about the 38 or the P40, my intention would be the same. I don't care if it's a good bird or not, I just want to be able to bring out the best in it when necessary.

That said, here are a few additional issues that I've discovered:

When buff killing or diving on an unsuspecting target, I am finding that it is harder for me to get a good guns solution. The Mustang has a different feel in a dive than my trusty FM2 or even the Dora, and as such, getting that quick kill is sometimes harder because I can't quite time the dive and/or get the deflection shot as well as I am used to. Again, this may be just a timing issue. I might need to change my angle of attack in order to compensate, but any advice would be helpful. My approach on low cons, or on buffs for that matter, is usually to dive from pretty much right on top of them. With the buffs I walk my bullets as I am diving, aiming for a wing root from a high angle and avoiding any dead six approaches. With low unsuspecting cons, I try to drop to a low six and come up just a bit to take the shot. In both cases I am either not getting enough hits for an instant kill, or I'm missing altogether.

What I have learned with the Mustang is to keep it fast, either above or at corner speed depending on whether I want to stay clear of the melee or engage more aggressively. I'm not going up and over as much as I am diving in, extending in a gradual climb to restore e and then coming back for another pass once I'm about 2.0 out from the target. As the con gets lower I start pressing the attack more closely, being careful to keep up my energy state as much as possible. I try to keep it at corner speed and wear the opponent down, and I'm finding that even slowed down a little, I have enough power to extend if I need to. It's when I'm below corner speed that things start to get hairy.

All in all, I'd say the Mustang can be very effective once you've learned its tricks. It's not necessarily my ride of choice, but it is no longer a bird I shun completely.

Addendum: I think with the buffs my problem is I can't make adjustments as easily as in the FM2. With the Wildcat, I usually have to adjust my angle upwards as I dive, i.e. as i come in I'm usually hitting the tail first, and I have to pull up a bit to bring the guns to bear on the wing root, unless of course I've lined it up perfecting on the first pass. With the Mustang, I can't adjust fast enough to get the bullets where I want them to go, and I don't quite have the timing to hit the wing root on the first pass.

[BnZs]

I'm not going up and over as much as I am diving in, extending in a gradual climb to restore e and then coming back for another pass once I'm about 2.0 out from the target.

I'd say allowing 2.0 is a little too far for good BNZ. You don't want them to have time to re-build energy or even think. Here's a very old, but still very good, TA film of Widewing showing yours truly how to really BNZ well back when I first started out.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1vgdz0332xm/WWBNZME.ahf

Also keep in mind that while slowing the P-51D can go badly wrong, it is usually very *surprising* to the opponent.

[bozon]

Why must we insist on conflating pilot error with plane performance, again and again?

This is not about pilot errors. The pilot's error was in how he got into the situation, not the way he pulls on the stick. There is no magic or skilled control of the plane involved.

One example: a spit16 pilot that memorized the charts remembers that his spit has a much smaller turn radius than a mosquito. So, he chops throttle, cuts inside the mossie circle and settles into a very small radius turn. The mossie keeps a higher speed and flies a larger circle. Now the spit pilot looks back and what does he see? the mossie hanging there, just a few degrees away from a shot, going round and round. How is that possible?

This fight has settled into planes flying on two co-centric circles - a small one for the spit and a larger one for the mossie. The slow spit cannot pull his max sustained DPS because he is flying a small circle. The mossie on the larger circle can match the spits DPS, but will never get a gun solution because the spit's circle is completely inside his. So from the spits point of view, the mossie is turning with him and if the spit does anything except keep on turning a small circle, it will die.

So what is the conclusion? that the mossie turns as well as a spit16? of course not. It means that max turn rate & min turn radius lists are not very useful. That was the only point I was trying to convey.

I've got to call a fighter which loses dogfights to a twin-engine fast bomber with equal pilots fairly mediocre.

If a 109K will try nothing but flat turns against a mosquito or a P38 it will likely lose. A 190D9 will lose even worse. I dont care about lists, this is what happens in the MA. That does not mean that the 109K or the 190D9 are the lesser fighters, because the 109K that is flat turning against these planes is not playing his strong cards and 190D9 is a terrible dueler but an exquisite combat plane that excels in large engagements - not unlike the P-51D.

[Muzzy]

I'd say allowing 2.0 is a little too far for good BNZ. You don't want them to have time to re-build energy or even think. Here's a very old, but still very good, TA film of Widewing showing yours truly how to really BNZ well back when I first started out.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/wyzdossggbm/WidewingBNZ.ahf

Also keep in mind that while slowing the P-51D can go badly wrong, it is usually very *surprising* to the opponent.

That's you showing Klauss how not to BnZ actually.

[BnZs]

Ummm...you just described a very bad pilot error by the SpitXVI pilot. The nose to tail chase is won primarily by turn RATE, which peaks at corner velocity and which falls off badly if the opponent allows his airplane to get below best sustained speed. If he chops his throttle below corner velocity in this situation he is making a mistake, probably derived from an epic failure to study basic ACM theory enough to understand that turn-rate wins the nose-to-tail chase. The SpitXVI's much better cornering and sustained turn rate are VERY useful here unless the pilot (almost inexplicably) screws it up for himself.

Most spitters are more likely to make the opposite mistake, leaving the throttle wide open all the time. But speed way in excess of the bandit isn't actually too bad a problem for a decent spit pilot, he will just use the basic principle of resetting in the vertical and come back down with advantage. Only if he finds himself closing with way too much speed and tries to compound that error by turning in-plane will he run into real trouble, as this film I already posted demonstrates.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/hsadbmk8ehqzn4s/spitLeft.ahf

"If the 109K tries nothing but flat turns"-Which is to say, if the 109K pilot is utterly incompetent, the other guy will win. ACM101 in these games involves, among other things, a discussion of the advantages of vertical maneuvering over flat turns.

190D9 is a terrible dueler but an exquisite combat plane that excels in large engagements - not unlike the P-51D.

Unlike the P-51D, the 190 has a power/weight ratio (read climb and acceleration) that is fairly competitive with the rest of the Late War monsters. And unlike the Pony, its gun package is excellent for killing with one high-speed snap shot. Add to all this fabulous roll rate, and you've got an airplane that is prime in all respects EXCEPT turning ability. Whereas the Pony is poor to mediocre in all respects EXCEPT top speed. This is a very important distinction.

[BnZs]

That's you showing Klauss how not to BnZ actually.

Crap. This should be right this time.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1vgdz0332xm/WWBNZME.ahf

[katanaso]

There are a lot of 'absolutes' going on in these debates, which don't translate directly into the fighting or what these planes are capable of in this game.

I don't particularly think of ENY when choosing a ride.  I pick something that is fun to play in, and often fun to fight in against it's intended use.  

More often than not, the 51 can hold it's own and kill better 'turners' in prolonged turn fights.  This is against new players, veterans, and everything in between.  I'm not the best either.

Limiting yourself to keeping it fast limits the options during a fight.  Get it slow, use low yo-yo's to gain an angle.  High yo-yo's as well.  If you're just doing nose-to-tail chasing, start thinking in three dimensions.

As I said in my prior post, learn what the other plane(s) can do as well.

In this game, a 51 can stick to the six of most of the plane set if the fight starts with some alt and works down.  Just learn to do it.

[BnZs]

In this game, a 51 can stick to the six of most of the plane set if the fight starts with some alt and works down.  Just learn to do it.

Yes, if one the many planes in the game which boast both superior turning ability and superior power/weight ratio choose to fight the P-51D primarily nose down, the Mustang stands a better chance of winning, per the Yak film I posted earlier. This as opposed to a climbing turn fight, which the Mustang cannot follow for very long, so it must go nose-down to maintain speed and wait for the opponent, who now has the initiative of height, to come back down upon it.

One could also say that the Mustang will win if the opponent deliberately guides their aircraft into a tree. It would be equally true, and equally irrelevant when it comes to the fact that the P-51D is a poor dogfighter compared to most of its Late War counterparts. 

[morfiend]

There are a lot of 'absolutes' going on in these debates, which don't translate directly into the fighting or what these planes are capable of in this game.

I don't particularly think of ENY when choosing a ride.  I pick something that is fun to play in, and often fun to fight in against it's intended use.  

More often than not, the 51 can hold it's own and kill better 'turners' in prolonged turn fights.  This is against new players, veterans, and everything in between.  I'm not the best either.

Limiting yourself to keeping it fast limits the options during a fight.  Get it slow, use low yo-yo's to gain an angle.  High yo-yo's as well.  If you're just doing nose-to-tail chasing, start thinking in three dimensions.

As I said in my prior post, learn what the other plane(s) can do as well.

In this game, a 51 can stick to the six of most of the plane set if the fight starts with some alt and works down.  Just learn to do it.

  This is some great advice!  Afterall it's a game and meant to be fun,I only pointed out the obvious which is in order to survive in a 51 you're best off to keep it fast. That said,I personally think you can learn alot by just getting down and dirty,win or lose,if you dont push the envelope you just wont progress.

  Just last night a player in the TA augured in a couple of time and was getting frustrated,then I said if you arent crashing you arent pushing the limits and it's the only way to learn just how far you can push things.


  IMHO the best players ingame are the ones who are having fun,win,lose or draw!


    

[Puma44]

Well said Morf! 

[BnZs]

This is some great advice!  Afterall it's a game and meant to be fun,I only pointed out the obvious which is in order to survive in a 51 you're best off to keep it fast. That said,I personally think you can learn alot by just getting down and dirty,win or lose,if you dont push the envelope you just wont progress.

Oh, flying "stupid" can definitely be more fun in the P-51D, especially when you manage to win a dogfight in what amounts to a handicap plane.  

I'm still eagerly waiting for someone to post about the thing the P-51D does really well that will make it very lethal to an equal pilot dogfighting you in a Spits, 109, and Hog etc., techniques that will let me out-dogfight Flyman's K4 and all that. If such a thing exists I'd love to know about it. So far there have been many shouts of "The Pony is a good plane!" but nothing of substance about WHY it might be a good plane for dogfighting. And the craziest film examples of envelope-pushing in the Mustang have all been posted by me, ironically enough.

[katanaso]

Yes, if one the many planes in the game which boast both superior turning ability and superior power/weight ratio choose to fight the P-51D primarily nose down, the Mustang stands a better chance of winning, per the Yak film I posted earlier. This as opposed to a climbing turn fight, which the Mustang cannot follow for very long, so it must go nose-down to maintain speed and wait for the opponent, who now has the initiative of height, to come back down upon it.

One could also say that the Mustang will win if the opponent deliberately guides their aircraft into a tree. It would be equally true, and equally irrelevant when it comes to the fact that the P-51D is a poor dogfighter compared to most of its Late War counterparts. 

What you're saying is not limited to the 51 though, and I'd say the majority of the MA fights go nose down rather than into climbing turns.  My earlier post commented on the 109's and Doras climbing, and those gave the 51 trouble.

There are some keys in fighting it when slow, and I believe you know these too, but many folks don't.  For example, many folks will keep the flaps fully deployed while trying to climb.  They'll also keep the throttle firewalled, with WEP, and not maintain stability when going nose up, especially to the right.  But these are lessons that should be learned for all rides, not just the 51.

I can't watch your films at the moment, so please pardon if I'm saying something that you've shown in them.

I believe most of us know the 51 isn't a Spit 9 or 109-F, but in an arena full of folks that don't put in much time to really learn what these planes can do, it can hold it's own, in the right hands.  

If I encounter a 51 that's going to get slow and dirty, and I'm in something else, say a 109, I'll climb to the right with less than 100% power.  We know the 51 can't follow, and I'll get on it's six.  If I'm a 38, I'll make sure the 51 doesn't fool me into getting too fast, and I'll try to keep the fight slow, where I can outmaneuver it.

The absolutes are the only thing of this debate that bother me, since we don't experience any physical issues from throwing these planes around.  It would be interesting if there was vomit and dizziness from several minutes of low-to-high G yank and bank... heh

[katanaso]

Oh, flying "stupid" can definitely be more fun in the P-51D, especially when you manage to win a dogfight in what amounts to a handicap plane.  

I'm still eagerly waiting for someone to post about the thing the P-51D does really well that will make it very lethal to an equal pilot dogfighting you in a Spits, 109, and Hog etc., techniques that will let me out-dogfight Flyman's K4 and all that. If such a thing exists I'd love to know about it. So far there have been many shouts of "The Pony is a good plane!" but nothing of substance about WHY it might be a good plane for dogfighting. And the craziest film examples of envelope-pushing in the Mustang have all been posted by me, ironically enough.

I'll get the links to the films tonight.  I'll see if I can access the links now, but I don't allow FTP from our corporate PCs, and I don't remember them offhand.

For a bunch of folks, it doesn't matter if they're in a the best plane or a mediocre plane.  They're just GOOD!  Put Latrobe in a garbage can with wings and he'd probably get a kill on somebody.

But, in my opinion, what is has for it are the following:  ability to dump speed, good roll rate, nice rudder authority, ability to gain an angle with the use of flaps, rolling into a turn, and a low yo-yo, and nice stability when slow. 

If 5 ENY is reserved for the best planes of the set, I don't think it would be a 5 ENY plane.  I'm not sure how and why ENY was determined.