Turning 51-D's,

[RotBaron]

I usually fly the G-14 (w/1 20mm.) Granted I'm not at 25% fuel, but doubtfully the pony is either.  At higher speeds with no flaps at corner the G-14 turn radius is more than 100' less

Often I find pony's can flat turn with me even when I'm riding the tunnel; even more, enough to pull lead. According to Mosq's ST chart, after even a short period of just a few seconds, the pony should not be able to stay with me. I know all things must be considered and that the pony can get flaps out much sooner, however this just isn't what I see on my end.

A pony diving on me, thus having a significant speed advantage should have even a more difficult time staying with my flat turn. What am I doing wrong & not understanding here?  More than any other plane it seems to be able to hang in a sustained turn longer than the specs from Mosq say it should...

Class in session.

 

[FLS]

You need film for a definitive answer. You need the speeds and load factors for both aircraft and their flight paths in order to answer your question.

[Latrobe]

Film is needed for a definite answer. The Pony could be chopping throttle in his dive, flying lag pursuit to keep a shot opportunity possible, or a number of other things.

[Puma44]

Right or left turn?

[Muzzy]

See the post on Mustangs in this forum. Some of your answers might be there.

[bozon]

I usually fly the G-14 (w/1 20mm.) Granted I'm not at 25% fuel, but doubtfully the pony is either.  At higher speeds with no flaps at corner the G-14 turn radius is more than 100' less

Often I find pony's can flat turn with me even when I'm riding the tunnel; even more, enough to pull lead. According to Mosq's ST chart, after even a short period of just a few seconds, the pony should not be able to stay with me. I know all things must be considered and that the pony can get flaps out much sooner, however this just isn't what I see on my end.

A pony diving on me, thus having a significant speed advantage should have even a more difficult time staying with my flat turn. What am I doing wrong & not understanding here?  More than any other plane it seems to be able to hang in a sustained turn longer than the specs from Mosq say it should...

Class in session.

I already wrote this in the other Mustang thread but it is worth repeating.

Read the turn lists charts and whatever. Had fun? now throw them away. They are irrelevant for 99% of the situation you run into in the MA. This is because:
1. Turns are rarely sustained.
2. Speeds are not the same as in the charts.
3. The speeds of the two planes are different from each other.
4. The planes are flying on two different circles, more often than not, these circles are not even co-centric (i.e. the centers are displaced).

From your examples:

Often I find pony's can flat turn with me even when I'm riding the tunnel

If you are riding the tunnel near 6G, most likely so can he. You are both pulling the same G and have the same flat turn rate. Also, no plane in AH can sustain a 6G turn, so these are not sustained turns. What happens next, depends on the arrangement of the two turning circles (i.e. the "geometry") and the rare of speed loss of the two planes.

If both pull the same G, the difference can only be the radius and the smaller radius goes to the plane with the lower speed. So, you woulds think that since you are slower, he will have a larger circle and will not turn with you - wrong. If he sets his circle to be centered on yours you will both be turning at the same rate, on two different circles, but the relative position of the two planes will remain constant. This usually what happens when the faster plane goes into lag-pursuit.

Another possibility is that he will go into a lead pursuit for a shot (i.e. turn as hard as he can with you to pull the nose ahead of you). In this case, you are both doing 6G circles, yours is smaller, but his center is displaced after of yours relative to the initial direction. This means that if you start turning when he is 600 yards behind, he will pull an initial lead no matter what, but then spill out of the turn from your point of view. Try drawing these circles and see.

I don't have anymore time now, but I will try to explain more later.

[BnZs]

Rate of turn is defined by speed and G. There are two possibilities for a P-51 actually out-rating your 109: You are well above your corner velocity with excessive speed, and he is closer to his (roughly 250 in the Pony.) This is likely the case, since you mention riding the tunnel.

The other possibility is you being well below your corner velocity, while he is nearer his.

EDIT: I don't know the corner velocity for the G-14, but I"m almost certain it'll be lower than that of the Pony. Remember,  when you're both above about 250 the P-51 will be able to turn as well as you can.

[-ammo-]

I usually fly the G-14 (w/1 20mm.) Granted I'm not at 25% fuel, but doubtfully the pony is either.  At higher speeds with no flaps at corner the G-14 turn radius is more than 100' less

Often I find pony's can flat turn with me even when I'm riding the tunnel; even more, enough to pull lead. According to Mosq's ST chart, after even a short period of just a few seconds, the pony should not be able to stay with me. I know all things must be considered and that the pony can get flaps out much sooner, however this just isn't what I see on my end.

A pony diving on me, thus having a significant speed advantage should have even a more difficult time staying with my flat turn. What am I doing wrong & not understanding here?  More than any other plane it seems to be able to hang in a sustained turn longer than the specs from Mosq say it should...

Class in session.

 

Getting low and slow, I can sustain a better turn rate in a P-47 than a P-51D -  no problem whatsoever

[BnZs]

A pony diving on me, thus having a significant speed advantage should have even a more difficult time staying with my flat turn.

A plane on your six doesn't HAVE to turn as fast as you are turning to pull lead and shoot you.

Look, here's a basic guns defense that usually works pretty well: Starting with the bandit at a thousand yards or greater, turn into him until you are looking at him straight up, out the top of your canopy. Usually a slightly nose low turn is best. Keep this up until it looks like he is nearly lined up his snap shot (Generally you will see his plane banked in the direction of your turn, wings vertical, striving to pull lead on you) and is nearly in guns range. Now, at the moment he is about close enough to fire, roll level-ish to point a wingtip at him for a narrow target, and depending on your judgement and E-state, either go up or down. Most won't be able get effective fire on you. You'll be able to roll over into his six area, albeit if he dove on you he likely has enough energy to outzoom/outrun you before you get much of a shot off.

If he doesn't pull lead for a shot but starts lagging you (He is slipping out the back of your canopy down towards your low six in your views) options include reversing your turn to initiate a flat scissors (but remember to "profile" and jink if you have to cross his nose area) or a barrel roll.

[Babalonian]

If it hasn't been said already, and a lot of good information has already been given, with this subject being about the 109G14 in a turn fight, we have to see film to know definitively if you're cutting the throttle enough (or at all) and at the right times, otherwise improper use of the throttle can quickly (even less than 720 degrees) get you killed in a flat turn fight vs a pony who is using proper throttle and flap techniques, as you describe.

[RotBaron]

ty for the replies

I'll try to get film of this. It's a regular occurrence for me so shouldn't be hard.

Atm however, I'm in Coronado/San Diego enjoying gorgeous weather. Time to goto the beach and then get on a tuna boat tonite.

 

[1ijac]

Rot,

I'm 100 miles north of you on the coast.  It's beautiful out now.  Have fun.

In regards to flat turns, I would try to avoid them because they bleed energy too much, unless that is your goal.  Try a roll to keep your E up.  There are many scenarios in ACMs.  Example: If you are following a plane and he goes into a 180 degree flat turn, there is a counter move that you can do where he can lose more E than you and gives you a shot opportunity.  I usually try to bleed the enemy's E as much as possible and retain mine until I feel I have a better chance of winning the encounter.  The trainers in the training arena are really good with helping pilots with flight ACM scenarios.