Tell me about the HE111

[Rich46yo]

I loved flying it in the BOB event. We ran into a cloud of rifle caliber Hurricanes and the fight was on. Classic!

Sometimes "History" is enough to love an airplane.

[Lusche]

What is the difference between a Spit I and a Spit16...

It's a difference  magnitudes larger than the difference between a He-111 H-6 and a He 111 H-16

[GScholz]

Not really. The Spit Mk Vb is a Mk I with the Merlin 45 series engines and better guns. The Spit Mk IX is a Mk III (itself a slightly improved Mk I) with the bigger Merlin 60 series engines. The Spit16 is a Spit LF Mk IX with an American made Merlin. The basic structure of the aircraft changed very little.

[Karnak]

Not really. The Spit Mk Vb is a Mk I with the Merlin 45 series engines and better guns. The Spit Mk IX is a Mk III (itself a slightly improved Mk I) with the bigger Merlin 60 series engines. The Spit16 is a Spit LF Mk IX with an American made Merlin. The basic structure of the aircraft changed very little.

There are more changes than just those and you're minimizing those quite a bit.

[Lusche]

Not really. The Spit Mk Vb is a Mk I with the Merlin 45 series engines and better guns. The Spit Mk IX is a Mk III (itself a slightly improved Mk I) with the bigger Merlin 60 series engines. The Spit16 is a Spit LF Mk IX with an American made Merlin. The basic structure of the aircraft changed very little.

I wasn't talking about structure - I was talking about the performance difference especially in regard to the AH combat environment.
The Spit 1 & 16 are worlds apart in performance and thus survivability (tripling(!) it's K/D in the process). In case of the He 111 H-6 & H-16, this difference would be comparatively minor.

[GScholz]

Then you completely missed the point of my post. It is all about the structure; it wouldn't cost HTC a lot of time to make a late-war version since they wouldn't have to redo the 3D-model. Even the turret can be dispensed with as most H-16s simply had a MG131 in a flex mount in the original position. The turret became standard in later versions. Also, we don't have a H-6 as that version had better engines. We have a H1 to H-4 hybrid of sorts, depending on what guns you select.

As for performance the Spitfire I to XVI goes from 312 mph at SL to 344 mph. An increase of 10.2%.

The He 111 H1-H4 to H-16 would go from 221 at SL to about 244 mph. An increase of 10.4%.

A He 111H-16 would be almost as fast as a Ju-88 at 20K.

[GScholz]

There are more changes than just those and you're minimizing those quite a bit.

Not really no. One of the two Mk III built became the prototype Mk XI. The modified wings of the Mk III were discarded and instead they used the standard A/B/C types (the 8x Browning A-type was used on the prototype, same as on the Mk I). The rear fuselage was lengthened a few inches to balance the weight of the new engines and add stability. The landing gear was strengthened and angled forward two inches. There were plenty of other minor component changes like armored windscreen, wheel well doors and a retractable tail wheel, but not to the structure itself. The Mk IX did not have the aerodynamic and strength improvements, or the modified control surfaces of the Mk VII and VIII. And the final modification to make it a Mk XVI was a new upper engine cowling which incorporated a distinct bulged top surface to allow for the modified intercooler of the Packard Merlin 266, which had an integral header tank.

If you think otherwise please enlighten me as to the structural differences that I have missed.

[Lusche]

Then you completely missed the point of my post.

I added another one

As for performance the Spitfire I to XVI goes from 312 mph at SL to 344 mph. An increase of 10.2%.

The He 111 H1-H4 to H-16 would go from 221 as SL to about 244 mph. An increase of 10.4%.

A He 111H-16 would be almost as fast as a Ju-88 at 20K.

In other words: Still dead meat on the table. This speed improvement will just barely change the survival chances on it's own.
You can't just measure speed differences in simple percentages... you also have to consider about which speed range we are talking. The Spi I is much slower than about every other fighter it will encounter, the 16 not anymore. The 111 H-16 will still be slow, even with 10% more top speed.

The performance improvement for Spit I->XVI in top speed, rate of roll armament and climb rate make all the difference between a death trap (in LW arena context) that can hardly can get a kill (again in overall MA context) and a stellar, very powerful fighter that received "perk it" cries more than any other ride in the past.

A HE 111 that's "almost as fast" as a Ju 88 and still has limited (yet improved armament) will still be a quite underperforming bomber in the arena.

So yes, the difference between Spit 1 & 16 and He 111 H-6 and H-16 are indeed worlds apart.

[GScholz]

With the more powerful engines climb rate will improve, which mean more He 111 pilots will get up to higher alts where the 111 is faster. A 30mph improvement in top speed at 20K means longer time for the fighters to intercept. It also means the fighter will take longer to overtake the 111 allowing the gunners more time to hit the fighter. Improved defensive guns (very much improved, like 4-5x the firepower) also contributes to increased survivability.

[Lusche]

With the more powerful engines climb rate will improve, which mean more He 111 pilots will get up to higher alts where the 111 is faster. A 30mph improvement in top speed at 20K means longer time for the fighters to intercept. It also means the fighter will take longer to overtake the 111 allowing the gunners more time to hit the fighter. Improved defensive guns (very much improved, like 4-5x the firepower) also contributes to increased survivability.

These are all improvements. I never disputed that.  

But they don't generally change the high vulnerability of the HE 111 in LW arena in a huge way. An "almost as fast as a Ju 88" bomber with a dorsal 13.1mm (less powerful than a .50 cal) turret and fast firing, but still rfile caliber guns left right and a limited bottom mount (no tail gunner!) is still a very vulnerable bomber.

Again, this evolution from H-6 to H-16 won't even make a fraction of the difference than the evolution between Spit 1 and Spit 16 in the context of arena gameplay. Whis is what I was pointing out.

"It also means the fighter will take longer to overtake the 111 allowing the gunners more time to hit the fighter." - Why would anybody overtake it and expose it to the guns while at it?

[GScholz]

We don't have a H-6!

[Lusche]

Feel free to replace "H-6" with "current version"

Does it change the point?

Nope.

[GScholz]

I've made my point. You've made yours; I don't agree with it.

However, you've not explained why you don't want a late-model He 111 except that it wouldn't be very survivable in the MA... That's not a good reason.

[Lusche]

However, you've not explained why you don't want a late-model He 111

I don't have to explain that because I never said such a thing.

[GScholz]

Good.