Author Topic: Horrible Shot  (Read 6832 times)

Offline Cremator

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Horrible Shot
« on: July 24, 2014, 09:18:20 AM »
I just can't get it. Ive put some really good players in some real bad spots, ive ran down superior aircraft to with in 200. I can't hit the broad side of a barn. I usually fly the hellcat so fire power is usually in my favor.  Ive done the gunnery course, shot the hell out of buddies in the TA.

Latrobe recommended first person shooter games for sight picture. In real life I'm the best shot in my neck of the woods. I qualified, back in the day, regularly shooting 490's, a few perfect scores. I triple regularly while bird hunting and have made shots that blow folks minds on running coyotes and can stomp a turtle from 30 yards with a single action .22.

Ive tried to figure out nose bounce, done this, done that. Am I missing something? Its bad enough folks quit trying to avoid my rounds and play me down. Help please!!!
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 09:39:36 AM »
Cremator, for the nose bounce issue, try trimming nose heavy so you are carrying some constant back pressure.  It can help eliminate some of the bounce.  It's also a real world technique used in the non-electric jets.   :salute



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Offline mechanic

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 09:42:23 AM »
what stick you using?
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 10:06:34 AM »
In real life I'm the best shot in my neck of the woods. I qualified, back in the day, regularly shooting 490's, a few perfect scores. I triple regularly while bird hunting and have made shots that blow folks minds on running coyotes and can stomp a turtle from 30 yards with a single action .22.

Doesn't really translate. I am a good shot myself, used to brain-shot squirrels for the pot with my .22, can hit a coffee can with a handgun regularly at 100 yards. Does not transfer to game.

Ive tried to figure out nose bounce, done this, done that. Am I missing something? Its bad enough folks quit trying to avoid my rounds and play me down. Help please!!!

There's your problem-many of our problems, including mine, tbh. A major hurdle is that you are working control surfaces meant to be worked with a big control stick and very long throws with a plastic joystick with only inches of movement. This requires adjustment. Another potential problem is combat trim-I have come to the conclusion that it ultimately makes the airplane handle less predictably and am determined to wean myself off of using it in dogfights.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Puma44

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 10:20:06 AM »
Good point BNZ has about CT.  Try disengaging CT and trimming slightly nose heavy.



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Online Wiley

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 10:25:35 AM »
My latest revelation on gunnery has been stick scaling.  I had been using the default scaling all along up until a month or two ago, when I noticed about the minimum amount of adjustment I could make while lining up a target was about 6 feet as soon as I'd start pulling.  I put in a really shallow curve at the low end on my pitch and yaw scaling and it was like night and day.  Instant ability to finely adjust aim.  It's an adjustment, and I'm still not quite at the point where the years of muscle memory on how far to pull are retrained, but it made an enormous difference.

Particularly if you're doing most of your gunnery TnBing below 250mph, I'll also recommend trying without combat trim.  If your speed is varying widely, it really changes the fine details of your inputs.

Wiley.
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Offline Cremator

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 10:52:13 AM »
I'm using a Logitech stick. I do fly with combat trim on. Ill try with it off. Puma suggested having my trim setting where I'm keeping back pressure and that sounds like a great plan. Ill fine tune my inputs some more.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 11:06:18 AM »
Post a film or two so we can SEE what your doing. Might help with narrowing down on the suggestions

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2014, 11:36:51 AM »
Gunnery is one of the hardest things to master in this game (if not THE hardest) and something that isn't taught very easily. There are several tips out there though that can help. Trim is one of those tips. I've never used trim though as I always have CT trim on. Something else you can try out is scaling your stick. For my rudder pedals I find they are just a bit too touchy for small inputs but I like the touchiness for larger inputs, so I have scaled my pedals so for small inputs (5%-15% input as 0-5% is where I have my deadzone) to have very little response at first but greater response as I apply more rudder. After about 15% input I have 0 scaling since I like the response of the rudder past this point. After scaling my pedals this way I noticed that my nose was not wiggling left and right as dramatic as before and I was landing shots a bit easier. You can do this for your stick as well. If your gunsight is jumping around too much while trying to line up a shot then maybe you should scale your stick so there isn't as much response when making small adjustments. This should help keep your nose steady when lining up shots.

Seeing how much lead is needed for those shots though is another matter. I could show you videos and screenshots of how much I lead my targets but it will eventually all come down to you just going out there are trying it yourself. You just have to have an eye for it or train your eyes to be able to see it. A long time ago when I was first practicing my gunnery I developed this little rule that seemed to work pretty good for me. This rule only works in turns and is easier to see the tighter the turn gets but this is how I learned my gunnery and maybe it'll be a good place to start.

Planes that are 100 yards (or whatever icons are ranged in) or closer you need very little or no lead on. At around 200 yards you'll need to start leading by about 1 plane length, 400 Yards is around 2 plane lengths, and 600 yards is about 3 plane lengths or slightly more. Anything past 400 yards though you really shouldn't be wasting the ammo on. Planes this far away you're only letting off a very short burst in hopes of scaring them and making them turn so you can get in closer. 600 yards is the limit at which you should be doing this though. Anything past that you are either amazingly good at gunnery or extremely lucky to land a hit.



You can also judge (more accurately as well) the distance to the target and how much lead you will need by the size of their plane. In my example here the icon says I'm 200 yards out but of course this is not accurate (I don't know the real scale behind the icon range. Where's Lusche!?) I can judge by the size of his plane that I am roughly 350-400 yards from him, possibly closer to 350. This is getting right into the range that I like to shoot at (300 yards) so I start pulling more lead than I need and I line my gunsight up with his flightpath. This way when I pull the trigger he will fly through the bullet stream.



Now a second later and I have started pulling the trigger to let him fly through the bullets. The canopy framing gets in the way so I used some editing magic to remove it  :D This is how much lead is needed for this case. He is about 250-300 yards away. Based on the scale that I use that's a little more than 1 plane length, so I pulled the trigger slightly before 1 plane length and let him fly into the bullets. I pull slightly more lead than I need because a little wasted ammo for a sure shot is better than trying to save ammo sniping and missing. Also, killing your opponent as quick as possible is what you must do! The more time you leave him alive, the more time he has to kill you! If you keep trying to save ammo by sniping them and missing then either you're going to run out of ammo and have to RTB with no kills, or your opponent will get a shot on you and kill you. All that ammo won't mean anything if you die so don't be afraid to waste a little. You can always go back to base and get more  :D

« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 11:41:06 AM by Latrobe »

Offline nrshida

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2014, 12:34:45 PM »
I just can't get it.

Why don't you post half a dozen films. You might be doing something consistently wrong which is easily fixed.

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Offline Randy1

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 12:47:53 PM »
One of my biggest faults pointed out by Dolby was and still is trying to take a low percentage lead shot instead of using the moment to invest in a better 6 position.

Offline Cremator

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 01:12:34 PM »
Nice write up Latrobe. I appreciate it. Ill see if I cant figure out how to post some videos tonight and let yall pick em apart. Randy pointed out something that I know I do and I'm trying to avoid. Thats skidding my plane in order to make a deflecting or glancing shot. I was successful a couple times doing it so I think I picked up the habit, knowing killing energy wasn't smart.

Ill see about getting videos posted tonight when I get to my desk top.
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Online Wiley

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 01:19:38 PM »
Nice write up Latrobe. I appreciate it. Ill see if I cant figure out how to post some videos tonight and let yall pick em apart. Randy pointed out something that I know I do and I'm trying to avoid. Thats skidding my plane in order to make a deflecting or glancing shot. I was successful a couple times doing it so I think I picked up the habit, knowing killing energy wasn't smart.

Ill see about getting videos posted tonight when I get to my desk top.

It can be done, but it really skews where your bullets are going relative to the pipper.  Are you aware of the effects of pulling G's on your aimpoint?  The harder you're pulling in any direction, the further away from the pipper your bullets are actually going.  The ideal is unloaded shooting at all times, and I have evolved to set up to be able to do it more and more, but it's an extremely useful trick to have in the bag to know how much off the pipper the bullets will actually be when you're pulling on the stick/skidding.

Wiley.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2014, 01:33:50 PM »
(I don't know the real scale behind the icon range. Where's Lusche!?)

D200 =100-299
D400 = 300-499
D600 = 500-699
D800 = 700-899
D1000 = 900-999
1.0K = 1000-1250
1.5K = 1250-1750
2K = 1750-2250

all ranges are given in yards
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Horrible Shot
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2014, 04:20:17 PM »
If you want to get good at shooting, and want to do so quickly, then do this:

  • Turn your scaling off on all axes.
  • Turn your dampening to zero.
  • Turn your deadzone down to zero (unless you have a loose joystick or a joystick that won't truly return to zero).

These simply serve as crutches 99% of the time and teach bad gunnery habits; with the exception of the deadzone, they all inherently promote sloppy control of the joystick. There are some players who have legitimate uses for them, but those cases are rare and far between.

The aim small, miss small idea of trying to hit specific areas of an aircraft does not work either. It works fine in non-combat and training situations, but the second you introduce stress, you'll find it becomes unreliable. In a higher-stress situation (such as the adrenaline rush from wanting to win a dogfight), fine motor control goes out the window. All that is left is coarse motor control. Want to see this in action? Run for 30 seconds and then hold a pen, as if you were trying to write with it, and attempt to keep it perfectly still for 10 seconds - you can't. This is loss of fine motor control and it happens when you undergo stress, regardless of whether it's for positive or negative reasons.

Take that same pen, grip it in your fist (like a hammer), and try to hold it still - you'll find this is much easier. This is coarse (or gross) motor control. You will fall back to your default level of coarse motor control in a stressful situation.

Not surprisingly, this is also what is taught in most real-life advanced weapon-manipulation training courses.

What you want to do is make your stick ultra-sensitive with a direct input ratio (i.e. no scaling). You'll find that it will feel very jumpy and almost unusable at first, but you'll also discover that, after a bit of practice, you can quickly adjust to rough guesstimates and be able to hold them rock-steady. Because of the direct scaling, there's no "learning" curve - it's intuitive. Half-stick, half-deflection; full-stick, full-deflection; and so on. Once you have this down, simply pull lead, then walk your shot in. Leave tracers on for this reason. This is the same method that was taught for using the F-16's cannon back in the 90's.

Do not do the unloading trick - that teaches bad habits that, while making it easier to get some shots, puts you in a less advantageous position should you miss your shot.

TL;DR - Summarized: Take out all of the post-processing of your joystick input - it simply serves to "confuse" your natural reflexes and makes it harder to learn what is somewhat intuitive. Focus on quickly pulling the "rough" amount of lead needed over the center mass of the aircraft, fire, and then walk your shot in. You'll find it immensely easier to learn to shoot.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 04:36:56 PM by Skyyr »
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