Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human

[Zoney]

I did something approaching a controlled experiment into this very matter over the course of one weekend.  I encountered a player I had never  heard of, I think it was "Boofdada" or something like, one on one several times in fighters of comparable ability. It was apparent that this person was inexperienced, and I won the dogfights with trivial ease. However, this same not-very-skilled person made several B-26 raids, on the deck (which thing essentially precludes the "dive with high speed straight down for a guns pass" approach) and never failed to at least severely damage my plane. Now when I say something about bomber modeling being wrong, I commonly hear "You suck!" from the monkeys in the peanut gallery, but anyone who has ever gone up against me in a few friendly duels knows this is an exaggeration. This experience drives the point home-This person was *literally* able to fight me better by clicking on a bomber formation and flying in a straight line on autolevel than by clicking on aircraft specifically designed for *fighting* and maneuvering. If that doesn't say there's something a little skewed about how all the different aspects that go into bomber modeling work together in this game, I don't know what does.

Actually your results could also very clearly state that you are fine one on one with a newby in a fighter but you can't do well against the same guy when he is in a buff, leading to the conclucion that you do in fact need to work or your tactics and skills against buffs.  Or maybe he just got lucky while gunning.

[Zimme83]

Its not that hard to hit a plane from <800 yards. its done all the time with acks and wirbs. Especially when the fighter fly in a straight line. I don't see anyone complaining about the Wirbs and gunning from a buff isn't much different from firing from a gv. I can score hits on aircrafts up to 800 with a .50 cal on gvs too and they have just iron sights. And during WW2 a lot of fighters where shot down by aerial gunners. Unescorted daylight raids lost 2-3 bombers for every fighter shot down and that's pretty close to what we see in AH.

[Xavier]

Now let's talk about the bomb load of even one heavy buff vrs. that of the heavy jabos, which planes, I remind you, are helpless against another fighter closing on their six unless they dump their ordnance.

Wait, bombers carry more bombs than fighters? Nerf them! 

[BnZs]

I don't see anyone complaining about the Wirbs and gunning from a buff isn't much different from firing from a gv.

It is completely different because vehicles are sitting on a platform called the "ground", while even the best trimmed airplanes on the calmest days does not keep an absolutely perfectly straight and level course. But in AHII the "X" key gives you precisely this thing. Now this is not useful to fighters, since they have to be flown onto target, so it presents and unfair advantage to bomber gunnery that should be compensated for with greater dispersion or wandering of defensive gunfire from buffs. I also suspect that the flex-mounted guns may boast an inordinate amount of accuracy compared to guns mounted in a rigid manner. I plan on testing this when I get around to it.

And during WW2 a lot of fighters where shot down by aerial gunners. Unescorted daylight raids lost 2-3 bombers for every fighter shot down and that's pretty close to what we see in AH.

One, over-claiming is rampant in aerial warfare, and is especially problematic when it comes to planes actually downed by bomber fire. Two, WWII bombers were being flown in huge stacked boxes with dozens of airplanes and hundreds of individual gunners. It was not formidable so much because of individual gunners sniping specific airplanes, which was rare, but simply because so many guns provided a veritable cloud of bullets. By comparison, an AH bomber formation consists of a 3 ship vic, almost always manned by one guy. If an AH 3 ship formation achieves k/d ratios similar what was achieved by bombers in a combat box, dozens of close packed airplanes and hundreds of trained gunners, then that serves as rather strong evidence that buff formations in AH are over-powered relative to realism.

[BnZs]

Actually your results could also very clearly state that you are fine one on one with a newby in a fighter but you can't do well against the same guy when he is in a buff, leading to the conclucion that you do in fact need to work or your tactics and skills against buffs.  Or maybe he just got lucky while gunning.

But you see, this is an experiment without confounding variables. Whatever the other guy's and my own ability relative the entire AH player population, our skill as pilots remained the same relative to each other throughout the "experiment". And the "experiment" demonstrated unequivocally that this guy was more formidable in a fight by flying "vulnerable" bombers on auto-x than he was in a *fighter* airplane, you know an airplane actually designed for *fighting*, that in the real world was assigned to PROTECTING bombers, not the other way around. He could be the worst pilot in AH and I could be the second worst, or we could be elite, doesn't matter in ALL possible combinations he should STILL be more likely to succeed taking me on in a comparable fighter than in 3 buffs. "As above, so below."

Skills and luck-Well, only experience with bomber flying in recent memory is taking some B-17s over an enemy base at 10K on a lark. I was flying on the crapulent comp I'm typing on right now, not my regular game rig. Remember, I have almost no experience with bombing or gunning.  Turns out gunning in AH is as easy as point and click, literally since I was using a mouse in the absence of a joystick. I shot down two planes and still had 3 ships, albeit damaged, right before I flew the formation into a mountain range.

There is a certain long-time pilot who liked to accuse me of "sucking" when I talk about bomber issues, perhaps because he doesn't realize that not everyone hangs around at nose-bleed alts in a P-38, therefore interception is not as easy for most. Well, I recently re-found the film of our one and only duel in which he named the planes (you can guess which). Fair merge, other guy's favorite ride, I won with a clean shot from behind. Took ten minutes of looping and turning I admit, but it was the other guy's main plane after all. I mentioned this little fact to him the last time he braced me on a thread like this and I haven't heard a peep from him since. If I "suck", then anyone I manage to squeeze out a victory over in a fair duel must also "suck", yes?  

[Karnak]

His skill in fighters is not his skill in bombers and your skill in killing fighters is not your skill in killing bombers.  Your test does not mean what you think it means.

[BnZs]

His skill in fighters is not his skill in bombers and your skill in killing fighters is not your skill in killing bombers.  Your test does not mean what you think it means.

This means Karnak does not like the results.  But at least you are not crass enough to call me a liar or argue via ad hominem because of that. That's why I like you. 

Bomber "skills"? Apparently I can achieve a par bomber k/d ratio against fighters with no experience and on a terrible comp and shoddy internet connection. "Skills..."

Another example: Shawk is without doubt a very skilled and lethal fighter pilot. But when things are really bad and he's outnumbered, I've noticed his practice is often to drag a flight of B-17s around the fight. Which thing is very lethal in really no matter which direction you approach him from. Apparently when outnumbered he is more dangerous to a crowd of fighters in a box of buffs than he is a fighter, you know those airplanes specifically designed to FIGHT which in reality were tasked with PROTECTING buffs from FIGHTERS. This despite the fact that his fighter skills are also definitely there.

Answer me this Karnak: If buffs aren't more formidable against fighters in this sim than they were in reality, how do buffs in AH, 3 ship vics being flown and gunned by a single individual, achieve k/d ratios on a par with what was achieved by proper combat boxes with hundreds of individual gunners, able to aim and fire in multiple directions independently?

[SFRT - Frenchy]

O   M.  G.  !!!!!

I never knew you just had to hold 'Y' .... Im still doing the steady crossair thingy 

[Zimme83]

BnZ. U are a funny guy. Real world gunners flew their max 25 missions and did not have a fraction of the gunnery practice many players in AH have. Just like that many fighter pilots never scored any kills. 97% did not reach 5 kills. In real world both gunners and pilots were way below most AH pilots in aiming skills. That affected fighers more since 100 gunners could just spray and pray. Most A2A victories where shots from dead 6, 200 yards out because the rookie in the plane ahead didnt looked around.
 And yes, wind affects planes. Fighters more than bombers. In AH we have no real wind so its not a factor. And btw yes, a calm day a perfect trimmed plane fly in a very straight line, no movememts that would mess up your aiming. Ive flew 90 min straight with only adjusting heading with rudder. No auto pilot or anything. Wind would mess up the fighters aimimg too, especially close to the ground. But sice we fly in this perfect environment we have nothing affecting aiming in any way, guns or bombs.

yesterday i was driving an m3 trying to avoind a lot of low cons and even dough i was turning and runnimg around i hit the cons on several ocasions w the .50 cal. Not enough for a kill but still, no plane moves as much as a vechicle running around and i can still hit planes.

[bozon]

Its not that hard to hit a plane from <800 yards. its done all the time with acks and wirbs. Especially when the fighter fly in a straight line. I don't see anyone complaining about the Wirbs and gunning from a buff isn't much different from firing from a gv. I can score hits on aircrafts up to 800 with a .50 cal on gvs too and they have just iron sights. And during WW2 a lot of fighters where shot down by aerial gunners. Unescorted daylight raids lost 2-3 bombers for every fighter shot down and that's pretty close to what we see in AH.

Really? no one complaining about the wirbs? 
Bomber gunners kills were extremely over claimed. For every 109 that started pouring smoke 20 gunners swore that they were the one that hit it. With a massive bomber formation the real danger is stray bullets, not necessarily the ones aimed at you. I wonder how many gunners hit other bombers in their formation.

The difference between gunning from a ground position and from a plane is quite large in real life. I was getting hit yesterday consistently by a Lanc shooting 1000 yards straight up. We were going at about 300 mph after the Lanc shallow dived for speed. The equivalent for a ground gunner would be to shoot through a 300 mph cross wind from a vibrating platform.

yesterday i was driving an m3 trying to avoind a lot of low cons and even dough i was turning and runnimg around i hit the cons on several ocasions w the .50 cal. Not enough for a kill but still, no plane moves as much as a vechicle running around and i can still hit planes.

So you bring another, even more absurd thing you can do in th game as a justification for bomber gunnery? Firing while driving in AH is completely arcade mode. The game engine was made for planes and not meant to model vehicle physics very well - and indeed it does not.

[bozon]

O   M.  G.  !!!!!

I never knew you just had to hold 'Y' .... Im still doing the steady crossair thingy 

lol 

The ability to go into calibration mode and move the crosshair does have its use - I use it to observe the target from afar with full zoom (or to see the bombs hit after the drop). This is how I spot individual GVs from afar and align to drop a single 500 lbs on their heads from 7000 feet. They could do that in real life! I am sure there is some anecdote to prove it!

[BnZs]

That affected fighers more since 100 gunners could just spray and pray.

Logic refutes this claim, since the in real world it a well-packed box with hundreds of gunners wasn't any more effective than a 3 ship flight manned by one guy is in here. IF one takes the k/d ratio claimed at face value, also an iffy proposition.


 

And yes, wind affects planes. Fighters more than bombers.

Logic, experience, and even the tiniest bit of commonsense refutes this as well. The fact that the guns of fighters have to be flown onto target anyway, they are typically multiple guns, and the fact that fighters typically fire from under 500 yards renders the the effect of wind and turbulence on fighter gunnery moot point. I've flown sims with wind and turbulence, it is almost a non-factor in typical fighter gunnery.

In AH we have no real wind so its not a factor. And btw yes, a calm day a perfect trimmed plane fly in a very straight line, no movememts that would mess up your aiming. Ive flew 90 min straight with only adjusting heading with rudder. No auto pilot or anything.

I've ridden in airplanes a lot. On even the calmest day there are slight currents that effect the motion of an aircraft slightly, enough to make trying to be a sniper an exercise in futility. Fighter gunnery is also effected to a degree, but again, the very fact that fighter guns have to be flown onto targets with continuous course corrections anyway renders the effective reduction in fighter accuracy almost nil for typical gun solutions.

Flex-mounted guns are in reality quite inferior to fixed-forward firing guns for aerial warfare. That is why they went to the trouble of inventing the interruptor gear in WWI, and continued to go to the trouble of developing maneuverable fighters for decades. All factors being equal, a single tailgunner would in reality be dead meat against a well-armed fighter settled off the six of the plane. A shootout between a small fighter with fixed forward-firing guns and a large target of a bomber with flex guns should hardly be a contest, if things are modeled accurately. AH's modeling of aerial flex guns reverses this proposition, thus distorting tactics. This is probably an unintentional side effect of the auto-level command, but in any case dispersion for aerial flex guns should be increased to correct the problem.

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[Karnak]

This means Karnak does not like the results.  But at least you are not crass enough to call me a liar or argue via ad hominem because of that. That's why I like you. 

Bomber "skills"? Apparently I can achieve a par bomber k/d ratio against fighters with no experience and on a terrible comp and shoddy internet connection. "Skills..."

Another example: Shawk is without doubt a very skilled and lethal fighter pilot. But when things are really bad and he's outnumbered, I've noticed his practice is often to drag a flight of B-17s around the fight. Which thing is very lethal in really no matter which direction you approach him from. Apparently when outnumbered he is more dangerous to a crowd of fighters in a box of buffs than he is a fighter, you know those airplanes specifically designed to FIGHT which in reality were tasked with PROTECTING buffs from FIGHTERS. This despite the fact that his fighter skills are also definitely there.

Answer me this Karnak: If buffs aren't more formidable against fighters in this sim than they were in reality, how do buffs in AH, 3 ship vics being flown and gunned by a single individual, achieve k/d ratios on a par with what was achieved by proper combat boxes with hundreds of individual gunners, able to aim and fire in multiple directions independently?

I don't like or dislike the results.  Your methodology is simply flawed and you are reading more into the data than is there.

[Zimme83]

During WW2 raids (before 44-45 atleast) there where between 1-1,5 German fighters for every buff, while we in AH often see 1 fighter on 3 buffs. That is the fighter pilots biggest problem. No coordination. Up 3-4 fighters in a coordinated attack on a set of buffs and the buffs will be no way near a 1:3 k/d ratio, 1:10 maybe. The buffs in AH have better defence than real world buffs against a single threat with all guns firing at a single point. Against multiple threats dough, its  just the opposite if u don't bring gunners. Multiple fighters dramatically decrease the buffs rate of survival.

[bozon]

During WW2 raids (before 44-45 atleast) there where between 1-1,5 German fighters for every buff, while we in AH often see 1 fighter on 3 buffs. That is the fighter pilots biggest problem. No coordination. Up 3-4 fighters in a coordinated attack on a set of buffs and the buffs will be no way near a 1:3 k/d ratio, 1:10 maybe. The buffs in AH have better defence than real world buffs against a single threat with all guns firing at a single point. Against multiple threats dough, its  just the opposite if u don't bring gunners. Multiple fighters dramatically decrease the buffs rate of survival.

True, but what does this means? what you suggest is that it takes 3 players from one country to neutralize the 1 player from the other country. If players upped 3 fighters for every one enemy fighter, the enemy fighters will not fare any better than the bombers. Mostly likely, they will fare worse.

"Multiple fighters dramatically decrease the buffs rate of survival" - multiple fighter dramatically decrease anyone's rate of survival.