Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human

[Zimme83]

Dose things effect mostly the aiming, not the drop.  2 bombs dropped at the same time will end up very close to each other. Drop a stick of bombs and they will land close to a straight line.  And there are some randomness in how the bomb falls in the game, they don't fall in a completely straight line so those factors are simulated pretty good.

[Xavier]

As currently modeled though, bombers self-defend so well with only one person that there is hardly any point in having even one person join a formation to gun.

Yet bombers still have roughly half the K/D ratio of fighters.

[GScholz]

Yet bombers still have roughly half the K/D ratio of fighters.

That includes suicide lancs and all sorts of other dweebery...

[bozon]

Bombs do not fall in a very predicable pattern. Air density/temperature, humidity, wind, rain, Coriolis effect and I'm sure many other variables affect where a bomb will hit. The higher you fly the more these variables will affect the bombs.

The scatter of the claster may not vary by much, but the deviation of the center from the aiming point will. The latter is mostly due to imperfect calibration - I.e. the input of the speed, wind and altitude parameters. Due to the way they are measured, the accuracy drops with altitude, which brings us back to the OP.

Yet bombers still have roughly half the K/D ratio of fighters.

Anything above 0.3 k/d for the bombers is good because you have 3 bombers/lives per player. k/d>0.33 means that on average a player facing another in a fighter has better chances to win when he brings a bomber than when he brings a fighter.
The parity limit should actually be less that 0.33 because this assumes the 3 bombers survive every time the buffs win.

[Zimme83]

k/d ratio don't say that much. A lot of bomber kills is GV:s and many players fly suicide missions in buffs at low alt.
Against a not-so-good bomber hunter buffs can reach a 1:1 k/d ratio while facing a good buff hunter the bombers score way below <0,33 in k/d ratio. But as long as the fighters keep coming in at the bombers six o'clock they are going to be shot down just as often as they get a kill.

[Xavier]

Anything above 0.3 k/d for the bombers is good because you have 3 bombers/lives per player. k/d>0.33 means that on average a player facing another in a fighter has better chances to win when he brings a bomber than when he brings a fighter.

If I'm not mistaken the k/d ratio for the Lancaster is around 0,14. That's the most flown bomber in the game.

Other bombers don't fare much better, I don't think any of them even surpasses the 0,3 mark. Even accounting for the 3 bombers in a formation (and therefore equating 3 bombers to 1 fighter), the Lancaster k/d ratio would be around 0,42. The average fighter k/d is around 0,9. So if we define "whinning" by downing the 3 bombers or the single fighter, we still see that the fighter will win twice as often.

That's why I see BnZ's complains about bombers being too difficult to shoot down as ridiculous. The average buff pilot loses two whole formations (6 aircraft) for every enemy fighter he destroys.

[Zoney]

Above all else, killing bombers requires patience.  You can work on your interception, angles, speed and gunnery but without patience, you will only find yourself on their 6, and dead.

If I have nothing else, I have patience.  46 bomber kills this month with zero deaths, or bails, or ditches.  I call out bombers when I see them and I do share.  More than half the time I'm getting the kill after the other fighters have flown up their 6, wounded the buff and the died before the buff goes down.  We got all day, he can't run away, what's your rush?

This post is not about my numbers, it's about your numbers.  I'm not a great stick but I can shoot down buffs without damage because I am patient.  It is always my goal to kill all 3 without 1 ping on myself which is not impossible to do.  Then I've got an undamaged plane and can re-arm to hunt a few more.

Bottom line, I'd like the buff pilots to have more of a chance of surviving.  How we do that, I'm sorry I have no idea.

[Zimme83]

Bottom line, I'd like the buff pilots to have more of a chance of surviving.  How we do that, I'm sorry I have no idea.

That's easy, we simply have to do like they did during the war. Escort the bombers or fly at night. Unescorted bombers have a very hard time surviving against fighters if the fighters are flown by good pilots.

This tour I'm 3-6 in bombers (combat losses), all kills was guys lining up on my six. I lost one set of 26:s when i ran into 5 cons over a CV. (one kill) And i lost a set of B-17 to a spit over nit city. A good pilot that didn't give me any chance. His buddy in a moss did the six o'clock run and died before he even scratched any of my bombers.

Last kill was in a single Tu against a La. Again approaching from dead six.

So: if u wanna live against buffs, stay out of the cone of death. If u have 1-2 seconds to shoot before the fighter is out of range again its very hard to land any lethal hits on him. Don't go within 1k from the buffs unless u are going in for a shot and don't be there for more than a few seconds.

[Zoney]

That's easy, we simply have to do like they did during the war. Escort the bombers or fly at night. Unescorted bombers have a very hard time surviving against fighters if the fighters are flown by good pilots.

Excellent point, you are absolutely right.

I fly knights, what do you fly?  What's your in-game handle?  Have we met in the skies, fighter vs. buffs yet sir?

[Lusche]

Other bombers don't fare much better, I don't think any of them even surpasses the 0,3 mark

Strictly air to air K/D


As being both an avid bomber hunter and bomber pilot myself, I can only state that those "high" K/D's for B-17 or B-24 only exist because the majority of AH fighter pilots stupidly insist on attacking from 6 o clock. Yes, it's not a matter of skill but just a stupid choice most of the time.

[Zimme83]

Excellent point, you are absolutely right.

I fly knights, what do you fly?  What's your in-game handle?  Have we met in the skies, fighter vs. buffs yet sir?

Bish, part of 97th bg. If we have met its prob over your strats. Long range bombing is my deal (and running goons...)

[kvuo75]

the majority of AH fighter pilots stupidly insist on attacking from 6 o clock.

it cannot be stressed often enough what a bad choice it is.

you go from basically fighter having almost zero chance against a buff, to buff being essentially a sitting duck.. just by doing it right and not attacking from behind.

[BnZs]

Yet bombers still have roughly half the K/D ratio of fighters.

Actually the toughest bombers *formations* have a k/d against of about 1. That means that for every time a single individual in a fighter kills all 3 bombers and busts the bomber guys mission, an individual controlling a bomber formation shoots down the fighter pilot and continues on his mission with at least one plane intact, on average. Now let's talk about the bomb load of even one heavy buff vrs. that of the heavy jabos, which planes, I remind you, are helpless against another fighter closing on their six unless they dump their ordnance.

[BnZs]

And No - i didnīt say that i should be able to do the job of 100 buffs, i said that we cannot use 100 buffs to carpet bomb a single base and because of that we use a different tactic.

I will try to explain this one more time:
You said the super accurate gamey bombsight is "needed" because you *cannot* up 100 bombers to carpet bomb a base. I explained that this is not true, that if you have thirty some-odd players who want to bomb you CAN stage a bomber raid with about 100 bombers. It is true that you probably can't recruit thirty other players to go with you on a 100 bomber raid, but so what? You probably can't recruit enough players for a 100 plane fighter push or a 100 vehicle ground raid, and in those cases you would actually need 100 hundred players to command a hundred planes/vehicles, not 33.333 as is the case with buffs. You DID use that logic to demand the effectiveness of 100 bombers be put in your hands, now you are attempting to crawdad back on that because I have logically demonstrated the absurdity of such a demand.

As for the rest, the modeling of hangar banging is a bad anti-fight dynamic in an arena already dying because people cannot find enough action of most of the time. In the good times it was anti-fun but not particularly damaging. In these times, anything making it harder for people to get up and fight is a suicide move for AH. Really, bombers need things to do that AREN'T inherently anti-fight and anti-fun. I think adding large cityscapes, the kind of targets bombers were realistically good for targeting, to the maps one day would be a good thing.

[BnZs]

Anything above 0.3 k/d for the bombers is good because you have 3 bombers/lives per player. k/d>0.33 means that on average a player facing another in a fighter has better chances to win when he brings a bomber than when he brings a fighter.

I did something approaching a controlled experiment into this very matter over the course of one weekend.  I encountered a player I had never  heard of, I think it was "Boofdada" or something like, one on one several times in fighters of comparable ability. It was apparent that this person was inexperienced, and I won the dogfights with trivial ease. However, this same not-very-skilled person made several B-26 raids, on the deck (which thing essentially precludes the "dive with high speed straight down for a guns pass" approach) and never failed to at least severely damage my plane. Now when I say something about bomber modeling being wrong, I commonly hear "You suck!" from the monkeys in the peanut gallery, but anyone who has ever gone up against me in a few friendly duels knows this is an exaggeration. This experience drives the point home-This person was *literally* able to fight me better by clicking on a bomber formation and flying in a straight line on autolevel than by clicking on aircraft specifically designed for *fighting* and maneuvering. If that doesn't say there's something a little skewed about how all the different aspects that go into bomber modeling work together in this game, I don't know what does.