Is it wrong???

[Cremator]

Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA.  Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?



Random post, no doubt. Just a thought...

[Aspen]

If the priority is surviving and killing the other guy, you fly your plane to its strengths and enter favorable situations.  Nothing wrong with that and everyone does it at some level.  I think the most fun and satisfaction comes when you win a fight you shouldn't have or enter a no-win situation and somehow fly away alive.  Reward is tied to effort, challenge and risk.  Vulch, HO or pick 6 guys and go land, and you get a little satisfaction.  Fight 3 guys at once from below, one augers, you wound one, and kill the last...its way less kills compared to the vulchfest but way more than twice the satisfaction.

Not on my high horse.  I pick, vulch and run but do try to balance it with the other stuff.

[Dragon]

I was in a KI-43 the other night and a C2 was doing the same thing.  When he did turn though I was able to use the KI to my advantage and turn inside of the C2 to land a few hits.

Nothing wrong with using the planes strengths, you just need to wait for the right opportunity.

[mthrockmor]

I hear runstang and it doesn't bother me. The PonyD was built for speed and there are times to seperate from a fight, gain some alt and 'E' then return. Or, the kind where it is 1 v 1 then a few of your buddies shows up, so he egresses the fight, smart on his part. Or, he is dragging you out of a horde for a 1 v 1, smart.

The kind of runstang that turns into ack hugging. Or, runs away from a 1 v 1 and into a horde.

A good 1 v 1 is awesome

[Max]

You pay to play; fly what you wish to fly. Few La _ sticks can outturn a Brewster. He disengaged and reset the attack...smart pilot.

Fly what you wish and use that ride to its maximum envelope/strength. End of story.

[SkyRock]

Today I up my trusty Brewster.

well.... it does start out wrong.... 

[Tinkles]

Everyone will always have something that they like and something that they don't. And if you happen to fly or use something that they don't, well, you apparently have 'no skills' or whatever.   Personally, I fly what I want to fly, and while I do sometimes get annoyed by how others act, which I may or may not approve of at the time. Ultimately, it is their way of play and as long as I am having fun that is all that matters. And if how others play effects you and your style of game-play then I suggest branching out and trying something different. 

The game gets old quick going through the same rut over and over, doing something different at least livens up the game for a bit, if not gives you a new perspective on the tools at hand.

[Kingpin]

Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA.  Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?

Random post, no doubt. Just a thought...

In this case the LA7 is simply playing to "win" as apposed to playing to "challenge oneself".  There is nothing wrong with that.  There are different approaches to the game, and to each their own.

That said, what IS wrong, in my opinion, are the people who fly only to win (using only uber rides, fighting only with advantage, ganging, picking, ho-ing, etc.) who then go on to chest thump, self promote and otherwise troll the game on 200 and in this forum.  Those are the only people who are "in the wrong".  You probably know exactly the people who I'm talking about.

Personally, I have far more respect for players who challenge themselves (even if they frequently lose) and only pity and ignore the chest-beating, "look how good I am" gamers.

My two cents.

<S>
Ryno

[Badboy]

I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?

Nope, you were flying to your strength which is absolutely the right thing to do. That is what you were both doing, the problem was you were both doing it evenly enough to reach the stand-off that caused your frustration. However there are some other options for you as the slower fighter, and I would like to make this suggestion.

When you see the faster aircraft coming back, don't turn into him for a merge, let him have your six until the last moment while you build speed. Then use a loaded roll to avoid the shot and bring yourself back onto him for a shot of your own as he overshoots. I have illustrated what that looks like in the diagram below from two different perspectives.



That may not be exactly what was happening, but you can set up a similar manoeuvre from many different situations providing you still use the loaded roll to force the faster aircraft to overshoot. Even then it involves an element of risk and it takes some practice to come out of your roll perfectly timed for the shot while they are still in range, but it is worth working on, because when it works it packs a big wow factor.     

Hope that helps.

Badboy

[Cremator]

Thanks for the illustration. I had got to a point where I was frustrated then it occurred to me about survivability.  I was tight turning, him using speed.

I always pretty much play how I want but try to maintain a sort of respect for each situation.  It all just kind of made sense at one point to me and it eased my frustrations, (want to catch him, up a fast plane.)

[Badboy]

Thanks for the illustration. I had got to a point where I was frustrated then it occurred to me about survivability.  I was tight turning, him using speed.

Yes, and pilots who are good in faster aircraft like P51, La7 etc are often expert at knowing exactly how long they can hold a turn with you before they need to break off and reset the fight. By tight turning you bleed speed and that opens the window for their inevitable extension. 

The next time it happens, instead of getting frustrated you can take some risks and have a lot of fun practising something new.

You can be just as dangerous even when defensive and the first time you pop one like that, it will all be worth it. 

Good luck with it.

Badboy 

[Latrobe]

Nope, you were flying to your strength which is absolutely the right thing to do. That is what you were both doing, the problem was you were both doing it evenly enough to reach the stand-off that caused your frustration. However there are some other options for you as the slower fighter, and I would like to make this suggestion.

When you see the faster aircraft coming back, don't turn into him for a merge, let him have your six until the last moment while you build speed. Then use a loaded roll to avoid the shot and bring yourself back onto him for a shot of your own as he overshoots. I have illustrated what that looks like in the diagram below from two different perspectives.

(Image removed from quote.)

That may not be exactly what was happening, but you can set up a similar manoeuvre from many different situations providing you still use the loaded roll to force the faster aircraft to overshoot. Even then it involves an element of risk and it takes some practice to come out of your roll perfectly timed for the shot while they are still in range, but it is worth working on, because when it works it packs a big wow factor.     

Hope that helps.

Badboy

Those were the two moves I used most often in my fights. Worked every single time. Everyone should at least learn these two moves. It will increase your survivability immensely! 

Nothing wrong with using your strengths. That's what you're suppose to do. Nothing wrong with extending to reset a fight after you've messed up either.


The Runstangs and Run90s are the ones who will still be flying a straight and level path with 5K+ separation. Why not use that speed and climb up a bit and gain an altitude advantage rather than getting no where fast (or... getting no where really fast?    )

[bozon]

Brewster and La7 are so far apart in performance that the situation described in the OP is almost certain to happen. The La7 simply cannot hand on to the Brewster, but can easily disengage. That does not mean that he needs to run out of icon range - he can still keep the pressure on, but he must try, see that it does not work out for him, reset, try again, etc. until the Brewster makes a mistake, or the La7 gets a lucky shot in.

Coming in screaming at 400+ mph for a difficult shot is not the only way for him. La7 is so fast and accelerates so fast that it can allow itself to try "stupid" things like trying a few knife-fight moves with the Brewster and see how it goes. Escapeability does not only allow one to run away - it allows one to attack from less than ideal conditions with the confidence that it can run if things go wrong. Zeke's are a good example - Most US planes "cannot" turn with it, but given a few 1000 feet to the fight and F6F/F4U,P51,P47 can try some turning moves with the zeke before disengaging in a dive. This is why zekes get destroyed in any fight that is not on the deck and in which they do not have fast allies to keep the enemy from escaping (as in scenarios/events/AvA).

[Cremator]

All good knowledge to have. I would like to point out that I did get frustrated but respect the other pilot and should he read this I don't want him to think I'm nit picking. He actually gave me the opportunity to learn a few things and as I reflect I admire the survivability he displayed...<S>

[Kruel]

All good knowledge to have. I would like to point out that I did get frustrated but respect the other pilot and should he read this I don't want him to think I'm nit picking. He actually gave me the opportunity to learn a few things and as I reflect I admire the survivability he displayed...<S>

I don't know why people replace "using commonsense" with "not willing to fight" or "he plays the survivability game". It is the same as "Hey everyone we are having a bar fights with bazookas, but if you have a knife and don't fight you are a coward, if you come in and get a lucky kill you are great! But eventually will be blown to bits anyway".

In the turning game the Brewster is the Bazooka vs the knife (La7), in the Speed/E-fighting game, the tables are turned.

If the LA does more than half a circle trying to get angles on a Brewster he is in trouble the Brewster's turn rate, energy retention in the horizontal (which allows him to go vertical if the LA does so after its slow from trying to turn with it). It is PURPOSELY putting yourself(LA pilot) in a bad situation, some people think its fun to fight a "challenging" fight that you aren't supposed to win, some people fly the plane to its strengths, fun to them is to string 6-10 kills a sortie, to do that you have to make smart decisions.

Better yet, think about it from your end, you KNOW you can out turn the LA7, that's the fight you want him to fight, if he plays the "challenging fight" game and you are any good behind the stick he SHOULD die, what fun is that for him? "Man, i turned with that Brewster for 1 circle, then he blew me out of the sky! What a challenge!"

Today I up my trusty LA7. I tangled with a few then in comes a Brewster.  Get on his six and he turns hard, avoiding my shot. I gain some ground and return, when i get within 800 he gets in a turn I simply cannot keep up with. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "Nerf Brewsters" "Zeke's do figure 8s around most planes" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was BnZing the LA7. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?.

You weren't wrong to use its strength, and neither was the LA7 pilots for using his, this just makes the point clear, Energy fighting is the most efficient way to fight, Turn fighting is  not. If you pitted the best energy fighter in the world vs the best turn fighter in the world, the turn fighter will be on the defensive the end for most of the fight if they stuck to their respective styles. The best pilot is one that can do BOTH when needed and can transition from one to the other at will.

The LA7 Pilot shouldn't have turned with you, but he could sure turn with a D9, P38, P51 for a much more extended period of time. Its all a matter of playing to your strengths and exploiting those strengths versus your opponents weaknesses.