9mm 1911's

[-tronski-]

After 16 long months I'm just over 28 days (fingers crossed) from being to purchase my first handgun - the way things are here its very difficult to try different firearms unless you know someone at your club who has one and is willing to let you try it - which lets face it most shooter do. I've narrowed it down to either a Walther PPQ Navy SD or 1911. I usually use our clubs CZ SP-01, M&P 9l and a SAM 1911 .38 super but even though Ive never used the Walther if I went a polymer pistol I've been pretty impressed with what I've read and seen about it.
However even though I apparently have hands of a woman - I do love a 1911 so am leaning towards either a 9mm Springfield Loaded, Range Officer or a Remington R1 Enhanced.

Does anyone have experience in these or could offer an opinion about their serviceability, ease of maintenance etc?

In Aus you must have a legal reason to be licensed for firearms and mine is target shooting as home defence etc is not considered a reasonable legal reason - anything bigger than a .38 needs a special permit hence the 9mm and these are ok priced as pistols in Australia go.

 Tronsky

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Interestig ... a 9mm 1911. In France I had a 8mm 1911. Thank God in the US I have a 'real' 1911 

[Serenity]

The 9mm 1911s I've spent time with are good in the accuracy department, but have had reliability issues. Nothing crippling, but short-strokes from time to time.

[katanaso]

The 9mm 1911s I've spent time with are good in the accuracy department, but have had reliability issues. Nothing crippling, but short-strokes from time to time.

Using factory ammo, or reloads (not your own)?

Can't help on the 9mm 1911's.  I've own shot .45's and 10mm in a 1911, so no idea about the 9mm varieties. 

[DaveBB]

Hand guns (pistols) are horrible weapons.  They are only effective if you are precise about shot placement.  SHOT PLACEMENT.  This is how the VTECH killer and the Muslim Army Psychiatrist in Texas were able to get so many kills.  So basically, if you are much more efficient with the 9mm rather than the 45 caliber, you are better off.  Personally, I use a Remington 870 pump action shotgun for personal defense.  At close range, each pellet has the same amount of kinetic energy as a .38 caliber round. 

[Serenity]

Using factory ammo, or reloads (not your own)?

Can't help on the 9mm 1911's.  I've own shot .45's and 10mm in a 1911, so no idea about the 9mm varieties. 

Factory ammo. I don't have extensive experience, I've used a buddy's at the range several times, and in about 3 range outings and I would say 20 magazines, I had probably jams. I went the .45 myself, but sadly it doesn't seem to be an option for the OP.

[-tronski-]

Interestig ... a 9mm 1911. In France I had a 8mm 1911. Thank God in the US I have a 'real' 1911 

You can get a high cap permit for pistols chambered between .38 and .45, but theres no way I can satisfy the licensing requirements otherwise I'd be looking at .40 or .45 myself.
But the 9mm is a good start - and the ammo is fairly cheap too

Personally, I use a Remington 870 pump action shotgun for personal defense. 

Unfortunately pump action shotguns are restricted, as are self loading rifles etc otherwise to be honest I'd probably already have one, and or probably some type of AR-15.
But like pistols you can get them but the hoops you need to jump through to not only obtain but then keep them is designed to discourage all but those willing to put in the time and effort to tick all these boxes....and there are plenty of boxes. Normal long arms are easier, and there are plenty around but there is a lot of heat in the public when it comes to pistol shooting & ownership.

 Tronsky

[-ammo-]

You can get a high cap permit for pistols chambered between .38 and .45, but theres no way I can satisfy the licensing requirements otherwise I'd be looking at .40 or .45 myself.
But the 9mm is a good start - and the ammo is fairly cheap too

Unfortunately pump action shotguns are restricted, as are self loading rifles etc otherwise to be honest I'd probably already have one, and or probably some type of AR-15.
But like pistols you can get them but the hoops you need to jump through to not only obtain but then keep them is designed to discourage all but those willing to put in the time and effort to tick all these boxes....and there are plenty of boxes. Normal long arms are easier, and there are plenty around but there is a lot of heat in the public when it comes to pistol shooting & ownership.

 Tronsky

No offense Tronski, and I have met some fine people from Australia, but those restrictions suck!

[Slate]

  Polymer pistols are quite comfortable to shoot and may be your best option with the 9mm load.

  Like some have said the lower power round doesn't cycle the 1911 action as well as a 45 cal.

   Better to have a reliable piece than none at all. 

[Maverick]

First off, forget the debate regarding 9mm vs 45 in the 1911. It is a purely a moot point for your country restrictions. There are tons of folks competing and shooting the 9mm 1911 style pistol all the time with no more problems than the 45 version. The 9mm is actually higher powered both in pressure and velocity to the 45 so function is not a factor in the caliber. Condition of the gun (cleanliness, lube, mechanical factors like magazine) and quality of the ammo are far more critical to function than caliber per se. Using modern ammo, ie Hornady self defense puts the 9mm to be about as effective as the 45 is. It's the old ball ammo (solid slug, no hp) that makes the 38 and 9mm so bad compared to 45 ball.

Buy a quality pistol like the range officer, use good magazines and decent ammo and you will be fine. Unless the polymer pistol flexes alot, felt recoil will be the same. The polymer pistol can have MORE recoil since it tends to be lighter and a lighter gun has less mass to absorb the recoil pulse. In the 9mm that's not that big of a deal anyhow.

You can also get recoil springs of varying strength to use to set the pistol to the ammo you use. Should you slow the 9mm down to 45 velocity a weaker spring will enhance reliability. Just go back to the full strength one when you use full power ammo. In any case use a good grip when shooting. Limp wristing a semi auto pistol can induce malfunctions in ANY caliber including 45.

The 38 super is just short of the 357 sig for velocity but the ammo is likely to be more expensive and harder to find. 9mm is very very plentiful compared to other calibers because it is a standard military round. Lots of companies manufacture it.

The 1911 format is also very easy to find custom parts, grips, sights to use to make the gun your own idea of a great fit. Maintaining it is a snap as long as you learn to dissassemble and reassemble it properly. Keep it clean and lightly lubed and it will run fine. Personally I like stainless more than blue steel simply because it tends to look better over time. Bluing tends to wear a bit with heavy use or where there is high humidity since it will rust far easier. YMMV as these things are always subjective.

[-ammo-]

Using modern ammo, ie Hornady self defense puts the 9mm to be about as effective as the 45 is. It's the old ball ammo (solid slug, no hp) that makes the 38 and 9mm so bad compared to 45 ball.

That's not a fair comparison.  While both are great rounds, there is NO WAY a 9 MM will compare in both exterior and terminal ballistics givin a comparable projectile.  I don't think a 115 grain or even a 147 grain 9MM hot load will come close in terminal performance to a 185 or 235 grain  .45 with the same bullet.  The 45 will win hands down

[Triton28]

Get the PPQ and go on with your day.   Of those mentioned its the least likely to cause you trouble.   

[Rich46yo]

Ive seen far less of a real life difference then a paper difference. A quality +P or +P+ JHP in 9mm is all the defense you'll ever need. The importance of placement far outweighs any possible argument in paper ballistics. Mind you I carry a .45ACP every day but also carry a SW 3953 without hesitation. In it I carry 110 grn +P+ JHPs and worry not at all.

I think many shooters would be better served with a 9mm they can shoot better then a .45 . In the summer months we get 30, 40, 50, 60, a week "NOT stopped" by handgun rounds of all kinds. Very, Very few of them mouse guns or bad ammo. If you dont hit lung/heart, spine/brain, you will be thoroughly unimpressed with handgun round performance.

That's not a fair comparison.  While both are great rounds, there is NO WAY a 9 MM will compare in both exterior and terminal ballistics givin a comparable projectile.  I don't think a 115 grain or even a 147 grain 9MM hot load will come close in terminal performance to a 185 or 235 grain  .45 with the same bullet.  The 45 will win hands down

[Gman]

I've always favored the 1911 due to how it fit in my hand and pointed, it has the perfect grip angle for me, and is wide and narrow in all the right places IMO.  I've also really like shooting the 9mm chambered 1911's I've owned.  My first was a polymer framed 14 rnd cap Para Ord 1911, but I've had Commander length 9mm's from several manufacturers, and several full size from various as well.  3000$ Knighthawk 9mm is excellent, but you can get by just fine with a sub 1000$ 9mm 1911 from anyone, so long as you check it out for quality, lock up, parts quality, etc.  Some 9mm may have higher "pressure" than most .45 rounds, but that isn't all that is involved in term of felt recoil, generally nearly every 9mm chambered 1911 will result in less felt recoil and muzzle flip than its .45 chambered counterpart.  556 is generally higher pressure than 762x51, yet in the same AR platform for example, 556 will always result in lower recoil and flip.  Personally where I really notice a large difference in felt recoil and flip is with the Commander length 1911 in 9mm, they have far less to deal with than their 45 counterparts.  

As the OP stated due to his location, terminal ballistics aren't really important to him, so the whole usual argument that is always brought up regarding "defense" load performance (I think it was post 3 or 4 this time) is irrelevant to him.  This has been covered on this BBS recently already, and Rich46yo likely has the best information you can ask for.  If I want to know about rifle and pistol service life and longevity under abusive conditions for example, I would seek out a rental range than pounds rounds by the 1000's through them.  If I wanted to know about rifle round performance, I would seek out somebody who has recently used or seen their effects in recent wars.  

Pistols - well, there aren't a lot of places in the world that see the focused use of mainly pistol rounds, not rifle,  on people that Chicago does, and Rich is on the front line dealing with that.  His info tracts exactly with what all the major gunfighting schools teach, as well as the few instances where I've seen handgun rounds effects myself.  The further the rounds strike from the cone of vulnerability which stretches from below the belt buckle to the top of the head, and is around a 5" oval column in the vertical, the less effective they are.  Anyhow, like the OP said, this isn't a concern to him, and IMO a 1911 in 9mm is a great pistol for target shooting and learning to use a pistol properly, and is less expensive to feed than almost every other caliber other than .22.

[SmokinLoon]

As a beginning shooter, I highly suggest the 9mm.  I'm not so sure the 1911 is a good model to start with though. It is a complicated system.

Check out the Sig P6. There are a ton of them being imported right now from Germany (they were used by German law enforcement).  They are cheap (less than $400); high quality (Sig-Sauer and made in Germany); have a single stack 8rd mag (comes with 2 mags); and cheap to shoot (9mm Luger/Parabellum). I really like mine.

Keep it simple.  Dont listen to the lectures on which caliber is "better", or which gun is better, or which platform is better, blah blah blah.  Just keep it simple. Learn this basics and THEN spend the money on other stuff.  Your biggest expenditure over the next few years should be ammo, not new guns, scopes, camo, or other such tacti-coolio BS.  Whatever you do, I suggest sticking to the 9mm for a multitude of reasons.