Author Topic: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28  (Read 15554 times)

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #270 on: August 22, 2014, 07:48:27 PM »
The American craft trademark is kinda hops'ing the crap out of everything these days. And brewing it "Imperial"...we Americans do love to turn it up to 11. I guess this country was still kind of a beer wasteland even 15 years ago...I didn't even think I *liked* beer till I had my first Guiness. Nowadays though, you can't throw a dart a map of the North American continent without hitting the location of a craft brewery.

Choose between porter and stout? I'd as soon choose between eating ribs and eating bacon!



I had no idea. Apparently it has evolved, especially if they're brewing it "Imperial". Though, I will say, back when I lived in Northern California, you could find a significant number of craft breweries -but I doubt the proliferation was anything like today.
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Offline Kruel

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #271 on: August 22, 2014, 07:51:23 PM »
It's true for any duel if the intent is to have a fair fight, which is why both parties agreeing to the same fuel load helps achieve this goal.  Skyyr's and your suggestions do not.

ack-ack

OK, so lets say that's agreed upon..can it change on a per plane basis? so lets say something like loading 25% for this round, but 50% for the next round because the plane's fuel capacity doesn't allow for more than 10 minutes of fighting (excluding climbing out to the merge).

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #272 on: August 22, 2014, 07:53:05 PM »
And I'll add, it's a hell of a lot more interesting topic than AoM versus Damned, which is kind of pigs versus hogs or dogs versus dawgs, or any two virtually indistinguishable things in opposition to each other.

I guess we could be skuzpumped for high jacking the thread but, honestly, if Skuzzy reads this thread, he's probably just going to shut it down anyway, since is basically a toasting thread; a tad shy of flaming.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Changeup

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #273 on: August 22, 2014, 08:03:53 PM »

That is the entire point of trying to have a reasonable discussion in regards to 2v2, who judges what is fair though? You do? Changeup? I don't think any of us do. If people would drop their biases and what THEIR idea of a fight is and try to look at the proposals objectively (kinda like Violator's last post), then a real conversation can be had, maybe some more 2v2s can be had.


You've already had this explained to you by more than me.  You've failed to answer AKAK's question about why equal fuel load agreement isn't fair.  Continuing to operate outside the realm of reason doesn't help your cause.  These are not my rules.  They are the community at large's rules that have been vetted over a period of time longer than most have played the game itself.  The community isn't inflexible...BaldEagl has adjusted rules and regs at almost every turn.  Democratic?  Sure but he also put is foot down on ridiculousness because the community raised their concerns about topics like filming, fairness and above all, the fight itself.

The rules in any sport are developed over time by input from players but they never allow for any possible advantage for either team/side/player.  You are attempting to rationalize possible advantage.  The community is saying no for the most part.  To continue this is pretty insulting to be honest but the best part of all of it is that even if you believe yourself to be more cerebral than most here, in the end they won...because they simply wont engage in an unfair situation and you two are left to ACM masterbation.  No one wants to watch people fly around chasing them only to run out of fuel.  You wouldn't do that?  Then fuel load shouldn't be an issue.  There is no other explanation that is logical or rationale to make that less true.  I can see it already.  Hypothetically, Junky and Krup get one up on you two and then you simply load 50% fuel as opposed to their 25% and you evade until they run out of fuel.  The win is yours.  Argue that a different way is better because of fairness...not because you want to convince people that you are providing a possible advantage to them.  They don't want an advantage and don't need the excuses after the competition is over.

I actually feel sorry for you both.  As this argument develops its occurs to me how sad it must be to be so beholden to winning that you fear losing enough to need a crutch like uneven fuel loads.  I have know people like that my whole life and they are sad, sad folks.  See, winners find a way to get it done within the confines of fairness and fear little in the arena of business, sports, family and life...losers find a way to hedge their performance/results.  I bet you've got a set of golf pants with a Velcro pocket Kruel (you may put that in your sig)...so, how will you ever know how good you really are?  Don't answer that...you never will if you hedge advantage or are even tainted with the possibility of it.

Saying all of that, I'd love to have a beer with you and Skyyr but not for the reasons you might think: to confirm my image of you both.  I'll buy.

Good luck to you.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #274 on: August 22, 2014, 08:16:54 PM »
OK, so lets say that's agreed upon..can it change on a per plane basis? so lets say something like loading 25% for this round, but 50% for the next round because the plane's fuel capacity doesn't allow for more than 10 minutes of fighting (excluding climbing out to the merge).

If the players decided to take 25% for the first fight and then decide on 50% for the next fight, there is nothing wrong with that.  There is also nothing that states a duel has to be at 25% fuel, the duelers can decide on whatever fuel load they wish to take as long as both take the same amount.

ack-ack
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Offline Changeup

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #275 on: August 22, 2014, 08:22:07 PM »
If the players decided to take 25% for the first fight and then decide on 50% for the next fight, there is nothing wrong with that.  There is also nothing that states a duel has to be at 25% fuel, the duelers can decide on whatever fuel load they wish to take as long as both take the same amount.

ack-ack

+1 with the exception that wanting more fuel for the next fight COULD give away your plans for that fight.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Kruel

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #276 on: August 22, 2014, 09:53:23 PM »
You've already had this explained to you by more than me.  You've failed to answer AKAK's question about why equal fuel load agreement isn't fair.  Continuing to operate outside the realm of reason doesn't help your cause.  These are not my rules.  They are the community at large's rules that have been vetted over a period of time longer than most have played the game itself.  The community isn't inflexible...BaldEagl has adjusted rules and regs at almost every turn.  Democratic?  Sure but he also put is foot down on ridiculousness because the community raised their concerns about topics like filming, fairness and above all, the fight itself.

There's a difference between discussing it and "Hurrr Hurr Its the only way to make sure its fair!", that's not my idea of an explanation. I never said carrying equal loads isn't fair. My point is, that for some planes 25% isn't enough to have a fight that could possibly take longer, while in others it might be. My follow up question to AKAK addresses this. If you agree to a duel is the fuel load set for the entire duel or can it change each round? Our proposal simply made that a non issue.

Additionally, I did allude to the fact that even though fuel load outs might be agreed upon, there are some who might take advantage and load less. Considering the evidence of the idiocy of this thread, could you not agree that squabbles over films are sure to ensue? Our proposal simple made this a non issue.

They both have Pros and Cons.


The rules in any sport are developed over time by input from players but they never allow for any possible advantage for either team/side/player.  

They do allow for it because people can cheat by loading less, an advantage is possible even if disingenuous. Then it becomes a squabble for films (if they are even suspected of doing it at all). It leaves room for doubt..even the slightest bit. Why not find a way to nip that in the bud before it becomes an issue. How would the community address this?

You are attempting to rationalize possible advantage.

Hopefully the sentences above explain what I am trying to rationalize.

The community is saying no for the most part.  To continue this is pretty insulting to be honest but the best part of all of it is that even if you believe yourself to be more cerebral than most here, in the end they won...because they simply wont engage in an unfair situation and you two are left to ACM masterbation.  No one wants to watch people fly around chasing them only to run out of fuel.You wouldn't do that?  Then fuel load shouldn't be an issue.  There is no other explanation that is logical or rationale to make that less true.

We had 10 duels, you ran outta fuel in one of them, the other 3 players involved didn't. The LA7 is a gas guzzler, you didn't know that? You yourself admitted this wasn't a format issue, well until you saw the opportunity to make it one. In a 2v2 competition, if you are getting chased that's pretty much a failure on your part is it not? Maybe you didn't save the first fight we had. There wasn't any running, but there were many opportunities that were passed up only to clear wingmen, that takes up flight time, it makes the duel longer. No point in going around in circles here if different fuel load outs can be loaded for different rounds.


 I can see it already.  Hypothetically, Junky and Krup get one up on you two and then you simply load 50% fuel as opposed to their 25% and you evade until they run out of fuel.  The win is yours.

Continue to try to take attention away from the fact you ran outta fuel and it was your choice to load more or less, you knew we had the same choice is that not fair?. Fulcrum only blamed himself in our 5v5 for running outta fuel. You blame it on our rules. Please answer this: Did it look like we were trying to evade in our fights? Please don't say that we did to save face, its not like we don't have the films. Or was it, to paraphrase what Triton said, that we simply did a better job of maintaining a cap on you and not slowing the fight down, kept you on the defensive until you were forced to go up to take a shot or wind up getting shot anyway.

Argue that a different way is better because of fairness...not because you want to convince people that you are providing a possible advantage to them.  They don't want an advantage and don't need the excuses after the competition is over.

OK, so solve this problem, how do you make a 100% guarantee,without a shadow of a doubt, and without having to resort to asking for someone else's film that all participants take the fuel load that was agreed to ?. Take into account the following excuses that might arise: ("Oops sorry I forgot to film that fight (this might well legitimately happen, but still puts the duel in question)", "My dog at my hard drive", "No you suck I wont give you the film!") Give me your solution that doesn't include giving the participants the choice to load what they want (as you had it).

I actually feel sorry for you both.  As this argument develops its occurs to me how sad it must be to be so beholden to winning that you fear losing enough to need a crutch like uneven fuel loads.

You lost 1 duel to a fuel problem, the other 7 were not. I don't fear losing, I have already lost, and what a surprise when I mentioned that Fulcrum ran outta fuel in the 'epic' first round. There wasn't a peep from you to defend the almighty established rules set forth by the community. You lose this duel and we must be fair!  :old: Beholden to win? Look in the mirror bud. You lost the duel by flying so are trying to discredit it by posting. Don't try to convince people that you lost because of fuel, you lost because you got outflown. You admit to it 17 pages ago and suddenly expect me to have amnesia.

I have know people like that my whole life and they are sad, sad folks.  See, winners find a way to get it done within the confines of fairness and fear little in the arena of business, sports, family and life...losers find a way to hedge their performance/results.

Not sure why you typed this. This is about a game dude, remember? The last thing I will probably ever do in my life is take life lessons from this forum rofl,

 I bet you've got a set of golf pants with a Velcro pocket Kruel (you may put that in your sig)...so, how will you ever know how good you really are?  Don't answer that...you never will if you hedge advantage or are even tainted with the possibility of it.

I don't play golf, more of a basketball/baseball guy myself. I have much bigger plans for my sig, you'll see! (its why I don't have one, I want it to be Epic). Again, trying to divert attention from the facts, I might not ever find out if I'm good, but now I know for a fact that you aren't better.

Saying all of that, I'd love to have a beer with you and Skyyr but not for the reasons you might think: to confirm my image of you both.  I'll buy.

Good luck to you.

Whoa there man, please stop trying to imagine what I'm like, that's creepy . Keep it within the confines of the game sir, I don't swing that way. Don't buy me a drink, I'm good. :bolt:

=S=

Offline Vraciu

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #277 on: August 22, 2014, 09:58:20 PM »
What happened to Skyyr anyway?  It seems he bailed on his squaddie in these dueling threads.

Mini-Me "don't need no help" from Skyyr.  Skyyr raised him from a pup to be an attack dog.  :)

 :rofl

Bottom line is the fuel load should be the same, regardless of what that is.   Heck, do four fights in each plane.  25%, 50%, 75%, and 100%, then switch to the next one.   


^^^^^^^^^^^ Didn't make it through his post above.  Too much shouting and droning on and on and on.  *headache*

  :bolt:
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 10:03:46 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #278 on: August 22, 2014, 10:00:39 PM »
If the players decided to take 25% for the first fight and then decide on 50% for the next fight, there is nothing wrong with that.  There is also nothing that states a duel has to be at 25% fuel, the duelers can decide on whatever fuel load they wish to take as long as both take the same amount.

ack-ack

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Offline Changeup

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #279 on: August 22, 2014, 10:31:36 PM »
There's a difference between discussing it and "Hurrr Hurr Its the only way to make sure its fair!", that's not my idea of an explanation. I never said carrying equal loads isn't fair. My point is, that for some planes 25% isn't enough to have a fight that could possibly take longer, while in others it might be. My follow up question to AKAK addresses this. If you agree to a duel is the fuel load set for the entire duel or can it change each round? Our proposal simply made that a non issue.

Additionally, I did allude to the fact that even though fuel load outs might be agreed upon, there are some who might take advantage and load less. Considering the evidence of the idiocy of this thread, could you not agree that squabbles over films are sure to ensue? Our proposal simple made this a non issue.

They both have Pros and Cons.


They do allow for it because people can cheat by loading less, an advantage is possible even if disingenuous. Then it becomes a squabble for films (if they are even suspected of doing it at all). It leaves room for doubt..even the slightest bit. Why not find a way to nip that in the bud before it becomes an issue. How would the community address this?

Hopefully the sentences above explain what I am trying to rationalize.

We had 10 duels, you ran outta fuel in one of them, the other 3 players involved didn't. The LA7 is a gas guzzler, you didn't know that? You yourself admitted this wasn't a format issue, well until you saw the opportunity to make it one. In a 2v2 competition, if you are getting chased that's pretty much a failure on your part is it not? Maybe you didn't save the first fight we had. There wasn't any running, but there were many opportunities that were passed up only to clear wingmen, that takes up flight time, it makes the duel longer. No point in going around in circles here if different fuel load outs can be loaded for different rounds.


Continue to try to take attention away from the fact you ran outta fuel and it was your choice to load more or less, you knew we had the same choice is that not fair?. Fulcrum only blamed himself in our 5v5 for running outta fuel. You blame it on our rules. Please answer this: Did it look like we were trying to evade in our fights? Please don't say that we did to save face, its not like we don't have the films. Or was it, to paraphrase what Triton said, that we simply did a better job of maintaining a cap on you and not slowing the fight down, kept you on the defensive until you were forced to go up to take a shot or wind up getting shot anyway.

OK, so solve this problem, how do you make a 100% guarantee,without a shadow of a doubt, and without having to resort to asking for someone else's film that all participants take the fuel load that was agreed to ?. Take into account the following excuses that might arise: ("Oops sorry I forgot to film that fight (this might well legitimately happen, but still puts the duel in question)", "My dog at my hard drive", "No you suck I wont give you the film!") Give me your solution that doesn't include giving the participants the choice to load what they want (as you had it).

You lost 1 duel to a fuel problem, the other 7 were not. I don't fear losing, I have already lost, and what a surprise when I mentioned that Fulcrum ran outta fuel in the 'epic' first round. There wasn't a peep from you to defend the almighty established rules set forth by the community. You lose this duel and we must be fair!  :old: Beholden to win? Look in the mirror bud. You lost the duel by flying so are trying to discredit it by posting. Don't try to convince people that you lost because of fuel, you lost because you got outflown. You admit to it 17 pages ago and suddenly expect me to have amnesia.

Not sure why you typed this. This is about a game dude, remember? The last thing I will probably ever do in my life is take life lessons from this forum rofl,

I don't play golf, more of a basketball/baseball guy myself. I have much bigger plans for my sig, you'll see! (its why I don't have one, I want it to be Epic). Again, trying to divert attention from the facts, I might not ever find out if I'm good, but now I know for a fact that you aren't better.

Whoa there man, please stop trying to imagine what I'm like, that's creepy . Keep it within the confines of the game sir, I don't swing that way. Don't buy me a drink, I'm good. :bolt:

=S=

All of your effort was just avoidance.  You couldn't make an argument without ad hominem and then you brought our fights into it to which have no bearing on my comments at all.  You're right.  I don't need to buy you a beer.  You provided sufficient evidence in your posts.  For someone who doesn't take life lessons from a forum, you sure like believing you can give them out in one.  Big plans for your sig?  Who makes big plans for their sig? lmao :rofl :rofl...ah, people who land kills in the DA
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Kruel

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #280 on: August 22, 2014, 10:48:30 PM »
All of your effort was just avoidance.  You couldn't make an argument without ad hominem and then you brought our fights into it to which have no bearing on my comments at all.  You're right.  I don't need to buy you a beer.  You provided sufficient evidence in your posts.  For someone who doesn't take life lessons from a forum, you sure like believing you can give them out in one.  Big plans for your sig?  Who makes big plans for their sig? lmao :rofl :rofl...ah, people who land kills in the DA

I asked a question, I provided premises to support the reasons for suggesting Pilot discretion fuel load outs, do you even know what ad hominem is? Did I try to discredit you as a person in my argument? Don't hurt yourself, the silly part is that some people think you know what you're talking about, that's sad. Our fights are part of the reason why we are having this discussion, they are relevant. Hell, this thread is about our fights isn't it?

Name one instance where I talked about life lessons in any post? Rofl you are the one that starts mentioning winning in life..see? Hypocrite. (This is technically not ad hominem because I am saying you are accusing me of giving out life lessons, while you just gave out life lessons in your previous post, calling you a Hypocrite is my conclusion with supporting premises. Hypocrite.)

Yep plans for my sig? Is that all you got?! You also suggested what I should put in there, remember? Ahh landing kills in the DA..what a SINNNNNNNNN, we do it for the lulz. Lulz.

Yet for all the dribble you didn't address a single point in my response while I responded to all of yours.

Let me know if you ever want to do another 2v2, maybe we can see what other facts you can try and twist around.

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #281 on: August 22, 2014, 11:47:07 PM »
OK, after 280 posts to this thread, I would like to get an answer on the following:


what does this community consider a "DUEL" is ?


what does this community consider "competition dogfighting 1 vs. 1" is ?


what does this community consider "competition dogfighting 2 vs. 2" is ?


what does this community consider "competition dogfighting 5 vs. 5" is ?


there is a difference, yet this has not been addressed

edit: maybe I should of posted this in the 2vs 2 thread by Changeup, but it's like everyone is jumping back and forth between the 2 threads

2nd edit due to Canspec's post below, I am adding competition to the dogfighting questions above


TC
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 12:03:58 AM by TequilaChaser »
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Offline Canspec

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #282 on: August 22, 2014, 11:57:45 PM »
When I think of a duel it has always been 1v1.....anything else is a waste of time and is usually boring...... :old:

....dogfighting can be any number of aircraft against any number of aircraft..... :old:
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 12:00:24 AM by Canspec »

Offline Zerstorer

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #283 on: August 23, 2014, 01:08:46 AM »







« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 02:04:22 AM by Zerstorer »
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Offline Changeup

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Re: AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28
« Reply #284 on: August 23, 2014, 01:28:01 AM »
I asked a question, I provided premises to support the reasons for suggesting Pilot discretion fuel load outs, do you even know what ad hominem is? Did I try to discredit you as a person in my argument? Don't hurt yourself, the silly part is that some people think you know what you're talking about, that's sad. Our fights are part of the reason why we are having this discussion, they are relevant. Hell, this thread is about our fights isn't it?

Name one instance where I talked about life lessons in any post? Rofl you are the one that starts mentioning winning in life..see? Hypocrite. (This is technically not ad hominem because I am saying you are accusing me of giving out life lessons, while you just gave out life lessons in your previous post, calling you a Hypocrite is my conclusion with supporting premises. Hypocrite.)

Yep plans for my sig? Is that all you got?! You also suggested what I should put in there, remember? Ahh landing kills in the DA..what a SINNNNNNNNN, we do it for the lulz. Lulz.

Yet for all the dribble you didn't address a single point in my response while I responded to all of yours.

Let me know if you ever want to do another 2v2, maybe we can see what other facts you can try and twist around.

You have fast feet, I'll give ya that, lmao.  But as I said, its pretty clear who ya are.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba