Airspace violation by Russia.

[GScholz]

Honestly, Scholz, I want to believe that your version of Europe is the truer version. And you're trading dialog with a guy who loves to read Jane's publications, so I'm entirely aware of the technical capability and raw capacity of the European war machine. That's not what I doubt.

What I doubt is the political will to use any of it - and I have similar doubts about the US. It'd be one thing if survival were on the line, but this last will probably be more determined by demography (which is destiny) and this too does not bode well (say no more).

as for your argument about the British, yes, they're exceptional. They also are a bit of a pariah, having not accepted the same level of commonization, as is, I note, Norway (whose economic fundamentals are, I think, exceptional - well worth investment via etf, for example)


BTW, I find your example form the press quite telling.  The Russians fully understand that they must not wake Europe up by doing anything outright barbaric. But, regardless, they will have their way - while we're off doing the Greek equivalent of invading Syracuse (see, eg, Alcibiades - thwe parallel to the modern west is stunning).

I can agree to that... But just to make something very clear, while Europe has become a very peaceful place that doesn't mean the European nations are not willing to use military force when necessary. Even outside Europe. My country is very small with a total population half the size of New York. Yet this tiny country has been involved in more than 40 military operations since WWII, mostly under the UN or NATO banner. We have more than 120,000 registered veterans from the last 10-20 years of conflicts, mostly from the wars in Afghanistan and the Balkans... That's about 3% of our entire population; about one in every 25 Norwegians currently living is a war veteran. I'm one of them.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

I'm one of them.

Aah so that's why you're always angry. PTSD? 

[GScholz]

Me angry? Never! How can anyone look at my avatar and think I'm angry? 

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Me angry? Never! How can anyone look at my avatar and think I'm angry? 

That person is very glad from outside but has hidden anger inside as is reflected by his actions in the movie.

[GScholz]

Well yeah... After all he's an actor. They're all conflicted and mad...

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Well yeah... After all he's an actor. They're all conflicted and mad...

I was talking about his character in the movie. The actor himself seems very cool. Speaks what, 7 languages fluently?

[GScholz]

I know. I was being sarcastic.

[PJ_Godzilla]

I can agree to that... But just to make something very clear, while Europe has become a very peaceful place that doesn't mean the European nations are not willing to use military force when necessary. Even outside Europe. My country is very small with a total population half the size of New York. Yet this tiny country has been involved in more than 40 military operations since WWII, mostly under the UN or NATO banner. We have more than 120,000 registered veterans from the last 10-20 years of conflicts, mostly from the wars in Afghanistan and the Balkans... That's about 3% of our entire population; about one in every 25 Norwegians currently living is a war veteran. I'm one of them.

As I say, Scholz, having spent a significant amount of my time there on the continent  in 10 different nations, I sincerely hope that Europe will take any measures necessary to preserve European culture and autonomy; a thing I think worth saving. As for your service, you have my once-removed gratitude. I'm skeptical, still, that a Norwegian vet is representative of the body politic in a place like France or Italy.

Anecdotally, one of the things I loved about Iceland was how exceptional I think it is that, for example, some woman (who wasn't thinking) can leave her purse on a bus and come back two hours later to find it exactly where she left it... Vikings...

[zack1234]

Iceland?

Rudest and most bad mannered people i have ever met

Considering their main output is steam and fish its very strange

Plane chartered by US military has been forced down for being in Iranian air, ITS WAR!

Or is it

[PJ_Godzilla]

Iceland?

Rudest and most bad mannered people i have ever met

Considering their main output is steam and fish its very strange

Plane chartered by US military has been forced down for being in Iranian air, ITS WAR!

Or is it

Surely, zack, you must've done something to tick them off... Perhaps you exhibited an emotion.

I knew an Icelander who loved his wife so much that he almost told her.

[zack1234]

Surely, zack, you must've done something to tick them off... Perhaps you exhibited an emotion.

I knew an Icelander who loved his wife so much that he almost told her.

 

[GScholz]

As I say, Scholz, having spent a significant amount of my time there on the continent  in 10 different nations, I sincerely hope that Europe will take any measures necessary to preserve European culture and autonomy; a thing I think worth saving. As for your service, you have my once-removed gratitude. I'm skeptical, still, that a Norwegian vet is representative of the body politic in a place like France or Italy.

Anecdotally, one of the things I loved about Iceland was how exceptional I think it is that, for example, some woman (who wasn't thinking) can leave her purse on a bus and come back two hours later to find it exactly where she left it... Vikings...

Yeah well the French have a horrible government at the moment (IMHO), however they do still have 36,000 troops on various foreign operations, mostly in Africa. Cozy places like Mali, the Ivory Coast and the Central African Republic where they're fighting Al-Qaeda groups and other factions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMl-O_aP43s

[PJ_Godzilla]

Yeah well the French have a horrible government at the moment (IMHO), however they do still have 36,000 troops on various foreign operations, mostly in Africa. Cozy places like Mali, the Ivory Coast and the Central African Republic where they're fighting Al-Qaeda groups and other factions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMl-O_aP43s

Agreed on the French government ( also IMHO). Perhaps part of the reason I discount them is their break with NATO and their general history w/r all things military ( with that one notable exception). They have sizable forces and serious nuclear capability, but why do I always assume that, were there to be a conventional existential threat to Europe, they'd shun involvement, much less coordination..? I always assume they're compromised internally but that's perhaps incorrect. It was certainly evident during their involvement in IndoChina but the game is a little different now.

As a side note, why is it that all former French colonies seem to be, uh, " troubled"? Yet you look at former British colonies and, with a few exceptions, they're actually pretty good places. I have my own theory, and it has to do with differing models of justice - but that's a topic for a thread sure to be locked.

This one probably should've been too, except everybody involved here is adult enough not be stupid about our interactions.

[GScholz]

The French are.. well... French. They did not so much withdraw from the military part of NATO as keep one foot in and the other out. They were not bound by any treaty to help other NATO members, but chose to do so when they think it is right for them. They've participated in many if not most NATO missions including the one I was in, in the Balkans. Since 2009 France has rejoined all the NATO organizations except from nuclear deterrent, where they remain independent.

[PJ_Godzilla]

The French are.. well... French. They did not so much withdraw from the military part of NATO as keep one foot in and the other out. They were not bound by any treaty to help other NATO members, but chose to do so when they think it is right for them. They've participated in many if not most NATO missions including the one I was in, in the Balkans. Since 2009 France has rejoined all the NATO organizations except from nuclear deterrent, where they remain independent.

Unbound... Yes. And when it's right for them is when they come out on the winning side without too much loss of blood and treasure. Perhaps they'd some reason to be cautious of cast-in-stone alliance commitments -and this would be understandable.

The internal compromise in IndoChina and w/r the Soviets I think had more to do with their labor unions -there were tales of weapons deliberately misbuilt...