Take it or Leave it

[Chilli]

Topic:  Rolling Bases

Discussion:  Are large groups of players, from one country, working together, good for game play?

Two Cents:  Today a nice group of Knights worked together to roll bases, that Bishops had taken close to our HQ and City strat.  The most resistance that Bishops put up were ground vehicles.  I don't believe there were more than a dozen airplanes that I encountered during that string of base captures that included 2 vehicle bases and 2 airfields.  I did hear that someone upped a Storch, but then bailed to take his pilot in the maproom.

The addition of resupply downtime of buildings and ack in towns, has forced the hand.  If you are serious about taking a base, you need to shut down resupply  efforts, many times from multiple spawn points and nearby airfields.   The clock on hangars, CV respawn, ack guns, and town buildings has thwarted many a capture attempt, when the attack force was too small.

The result is less and less dogfight activity, and more and more ground vehicle usage.  The aircraft that remain in use, are loaded with ordinance to destroy ground objects, including vehicles, and very likely avoid air combat until that load has been delivered.

[Tinkles]

Topic:  Rolling Bases

Discussion:  Are large groups of players, from one country, working together, good for game play?

Two Cents:  Today a nice group of Knights worked together to roll bases, that Bishops had taken close to our HQ and City strat.  The most resistance that Bishops put up were ground vehicles.  I don't believe there were more than a dozen airplanes that I encountered during that string of base captures that included 2 vehicle bases and 2 airfields.  I did hear that someone upped a Storch, but then bailed to take his pilot in the maproom.

The addition of resupply downtime of buildings and ack in towns, has forced the hand.  If you are serious about taking a base, you need to shut down resupply  efforts, many times from multiple spawn points and nearby airfields.   The clock on hangars, CV respawn, ack guns, and town buildings has thwarted many a capture attempt, when the attack force was too small.

The result is less and less dogfight activity, and more and more ground vehicle usage.  The aircraft that remain in use, are loaded with ordinance to destroy ground objects, including vehicles, and very likely avoid air combat until that load has been delivered.

Well, adding more things to destroy takes away from the fight, if you are going for the base. Simply because it is more distractions "Must get this this this and that down before I can dogfight". Not really sure how you could change that without taking something away or possibly adding something different, what to change though is anyone's guess.

In response to the Bolded part.

In the context of many players (over 15) going to attack ONE base. No, in my opinion it is not. 3 can effectively take a base, if unguarded. 5-8 if guarded, depending on the skill of the defenders and attackers.

Now, in my opinion, a great mission of 15-30 should break up into smaller units of 5-8 and attack multiple bases on a front. I recall a squad I was in back when falcon23 (I think that was how is name was spelled) was here, he organized a mission of around 40 players. We all went NOE, he attacked one base with a lancaster and 4 nikis and took a goon with him. The rest of us followed suit and broke into two more groups with the same method. We captured 3 bases within 1 minute of each other.

That to me is a true mission. The only time I call 15+ players together going for one target a 'mission' is when it's bombers going for strats. Anything else is overkill and thus correctly named a horde. The only other place that I think players can get away with mass numbers, is scenarios like the Battle of Britain.


Just my opinion.  

[Chilli]

To answer my own question, I believe I have left it alone.  I have only 1 base capture for the entire month of July.   

IMHO, not may get excited about small groups on base takers.  Maybe towns that can be gunned from ships, would fall into that particular category, but I haven't seen very much success with small groups otherwise.

[Rob52240]

It can be, it all depends on personal preferences and the people involved.

[zack1234]

Yes

GV's are for girls as well

[Lusche]

The result is less and less dogfight activity, and more and more ground vehicle usage.  

I'd be not so sure about the latter. At least I can see no general increase in GV usage over the years based on changed town sizes and increased downtimes. The only thing that I clearly can see was an increase in GV usage after switching to the new control system. (Based on actual tiem spend in vehicles)






What's really interesting about the last few days on FesterMA  are the low GV combat stats (compared to plane stats):

[The Fugitive]

Topic:  Rolling Bases

Discussion:  Are large groups of players, from one country, working together, good for game play?

Two Cents:  Today a nice group of Knights worked together to roll bases, that Bishops had taken close to our HQ and City strat.  The most resistance that Bishops put up were ground vehicles.  I don't believe there were more than a dozen airplanes that I encountered during that string of base captures that included 2 vehicle bases and 2 airfields.  I did hear that someone upped a Storch, but then bailed to take his pilot in the maproom.

The addition of resupply downtime of buildings and ack in towns, has forced the hand.  If you are serious about taking a base, you need to shut down resupply  efforts, many times from multiple spawn points and nearby airfields.   The clock on hangars, CV respawn, ack guns, and town buildings has thwarted many a capture attempt, when the attack force was too small.

The result is less and less dogfight activity, and more and more ground vehicle usage.  The aircraft that remain in use, are loaded with ordinance to destroy ground objects, including vehicles, and very likely avoid air combat until that load has been delivered.

In my opinion, large groups are what is totally killing this game. And before all the ankle humpers start in on me WE HAD HORDES IN THE OLD DAYS! The difference is in the old day you might see one get together once a night and more often than not people would up to defend in large enough numbers to stop them. Today one team or another with build to a horde ( sometimes two teams will gather a horde and attack the single team that DOESN'T have a horde rolling) and roll until they get bored and log. Sure it's a blast for the first few bases you grab but then what? Sometimes you get to the next base and all the buildings are down, no defenders are up or even a sector away. Soon it becomes just a waste of time with no action and so no "fun".

Next, in a horde, which is what the new guy see's as the way to play the game, there is very little skill. If the first 3 guys bombing the Vehicle hanger miss the 4th or 5th one will get it  Whats the point of learning/practicing/getting better at the game if there is ALWAYS another guy to pick up the slack?

So we have people leaving because there is no challenge and it is easy to master the game (capturing bases). People are leaving because they are bored, doing the same thing time and time again, fly heavy fighter, attempt dive bomb, vulch, until dead, or field is captured. Rinse and repeat.

I'd be not so sure about the latter. At least I can see no general increase in GV usage over the years based on changed town sizes and increased downtimes. The only thing that I clearly can see was an increase in GV usage after switching to the new control system. (Based on actual tiem spend in vehicles)






What's really interesting about the last few days on FesterMA  are the low GV combat stats (compared to plane stats):

(Image removed from quote.)

I think it's because they haven't figured out HOW to play on Fester map yet. Once they learn how it was layed out and why they will start running it better. The CV groups together confuses most players. I heard one guy say he thought it was a training map for CV operations. The central base was always hotly contended for when the map was originally used but now its a ghost town. 

[68ZooM]

Snailmans charts rock the nerd world   

[bortas1]

  hey chilli great to see ya

[Rich46yo]

I never considered it my bizz how anyone played the game. Its their $$ afterall.

But the reduced numbers of those actually flying, exacerbated by the endless tundra of the big maps, just made for a boring game.

"Boring". Sorry but thats the truth. And even the fantastic flight model, and the incredible variation of platforms available, couldnt make up for it.

Ive missed AH since the day I quit. I'll always miss it, at least until the day I rejoin. Which WILL happen. I do feel better days are ahead.

[bozon]

The thing that requires a large force is resupply, not the size of the town. The resupply mechanism makes it very difficult to take a base where a handful of defenders are running a constant stream of M3s - especially if they can come from multiple spawns. The answer is to either send more planes to take down the VHs on the other bases, but these stay down for only a short time, or have these extra planes come and hunt the M3s. Also, a single tank or Wirb/Ostie can cause a huge headache if the attackers run out of bombs - so they need MORE attackers either in JABOs or in their own tanks.

In the old days the base capture was more like American football - you just had to bring the troops to the end-zone (map room) through the defenses. There was not even a town and the map room was in the middle of the field. This way, base capture was about getting the air superiority and much less about destroying structures. I am not saying go back to that, but the resupply system needs a revision to reduce the constant and repetitive need to destroy ground structures. Three important things:
1. Each resupply package should fix a certain amount of damage, period. AFAIK, currently it fixes a certain amount for each damaged structure, so it is more effective the more structures are down.
2. The actual fixing of structures should be delayed from the moment of resupply delivery, preferably applied in a gradual manner. Currently, a hidden M3 drops his supplies at a critical moment and BAM! the town/acks pop up instantly while the troops are already out.
3. Town supplies by GVs should be delivered all the way to the map room, not to the edge of town. C47 resupply can be more relaxed in the required drop range.

What's really interesting about the last few days on FesterMA  are the low GV combat stats (compared to plane stats):

(Image removed from quote.)

Quite shocking that one several maps GVs do more killing than planes. I know it is difficult to compare given the spawn camping that make GV kill numbers shoot up, but still.

[The Fugitive]

The thing that requires a large force is resupply, not the size of the town. The resupply mechanism makes it very difficult to take a base where a handful of defenders are running a constant stream of M3s - especially if they can come from multiple spawns. The answer is to either send more planes to take down the VHs on the other bases, but these stay down for only a short time, or have these extra planes come and hunt the M3s. Also, a single tank or Wirb/Ostie can cause a huge headache if the attackers run out of bombs - so they need MORE attackers either in JABOs or in their own tanks.

In the old days the base capture was more like American football - you just had to bring the troops to the end-zone (map room) through the defenses. There was not even a town and the map room was in the middle of the field. This way, base capture was about getting the air superiority and much less about destroying structures. I am not saying go back to that, but the resupply system needs a revision to reduce the constant and repetitive need to destroy ground structures. Three important things:
1. Each resupply package should fix a certain amount of damage, period. AFAIK, currently it fixes a certain amount for each damaged structure, so it is more effective the more structures are down.
2. The actual fixing of structures should be delayed from the moment of resupply delivery, preferably applied in a gradual manner. Currently, a hidden M3 drops his supplies at a critical moment and BAM! the town/acks pop up instantly while the troops are already out.
3. Town supplies by GVs should be delivered all the way to the map room, not to the edge of town. C47 resupply can be more relaxed in the required drop range.
Quite shocking that one several maps GVs do more killing than planes. I know it is difficult to compare given the spawn camping that make GV kill numbers shoot up, but still.

This is where the players can fix the problem.

A mission planner can anticipate issues such as resupply and defense and can adjust his plan to try and get around these issues. If the base to be attacked has 3 spawns coming in you need 6 guys to pork those 3 spawns, maybe even twice. You need timing of the strikes so that the supplies are not available for the longest amount of time. Your buffs need to hit the main target at about the same time as the porkers so they must launch earlier to have time to gain alt and be in position at the right time ( I use to have charts with climb out times for different planes to set up way points). You need players that can hit the targets assigned, and players that can defend the attacking buffs. In this case you would have at least 5 wings running at the same time, each with players responsible for their part of the mission.

But thats the big rub, we no longer have these skills. Mission planners only take the plan so far, can't be bothered to make it any more complicated than "everyone grab a hvy fighter!" mostly because the players themselves don't have the skills to carry out the different objectives in the mission profile. So instead of hitting 4 bases at once (3 for porking to end resupply, and the 4th as the main target) we get a horde rolling base after base.

[Lusche]

Quite shocking that one several maps GVs do more killing than planes. I know it is difficult to compare given the spawn camping that make GV kill numbers shoot up, but still.

You are very right with your estimate of the impact of GV spawns. On a map like CraterMa, GV kill/death numbers will race up even without that much more players being actually in tanks
GV have generally, on all maps, a significantly higher rate of kiss (and deaths!) over time. Wo while making up about 37% of all kills & deaths in the current tour, the actual time spend in GV mode will still end up at around 25% or less.

Unfortunately there is no way for me to measure actual time spend in GV for each map, I can do that only for completed tours. It takes many hours to get that data in the first place.

[Lusche]

This is where the players can fix the problem.

The palyers, as a group, can't fix anything.

[715]

You are very right with your estimate of the impact of GV spawns. On a map like CraterMa, GV kill/death numbers will race up even without that much more players being actually in tanks
GV have generally, on all maps, a significantly higher rate of kiss (and deaths!) over time. Wo while making up about 37% of all kills & deaths in the current tour, the actual time spend in GV mode will still end up at around 25% or less.

Actually I think the number does change a bit depending on terrain.  By counting the number of players I see in tanks at popular tanking spots, like tank towns, I usually see that somewhat more than 25% are in tanks for maps that have good tanking areas, like CraterMA, while I suspect fewer than 25% are tanking on maps with poor GV areas (like the current Fester map with its oddly unbalanced center area that, in my experience, became pretty much a ghost town after the first few hours the map premiered).  The Fester map does have strings of V bases (with interspersed air bases) that I suspect were designed to create an advancing vehicle battle line, but in my experience they are just steamrolled by large aircraft missions (like the OP mentioned about last night) with bombers ambling untouched overhead destroying everything.  And no, I didn't enjoy trying to defend against that and just went somewhere else on the map, or logged.