Author Topic: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten  (Read 1914 times)

Offline Scherf

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Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« on: September 02, 2014, 08:27:30 PM »
Is there any way to determine which FGs or FSs were flying on a particular day? I don't have any 8th AF books here, and I'm looking for info on 21 January 1945. There were at least 300 Mustangs in the air that day for various reasons, however I'm looking for the six or seven that were on an "armed photo reconnaissance mission". Does that narrow it down?

TIA for any advice.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 10:12:02 PM »
I'll look tomorrow.  Just got home.  Might be Scouting Force Mustangs out and about
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Scherf

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2014, 03:46:28 AM »
Thanks Guppy, much appreciated.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Serenity

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2014, 12:54:58 PM »
I'll look tomorrow.  Just got home.  Might be Scouting Force Mustangs out and about

Guppy, I wish I could have a library as extensive as yours one day!

(And I still hold dear the contributions you have made to mine!)

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 02:14:34 AM »
Got the same answer from two different sources.  358th FS, 355th FG Mustangs on and armed recce to the Politz area to film the refineries.  The six Mustangs encountered heavy but inaccurate Flak.  They also were bounced by a pair of 262s who made a number of passes but did no damage.

Three of the Mustangs had K-25 cameras mounted behind the armor plate head rest so the fighter jocks could get thier pictures.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Scherf

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 04:10:11 AM »
Many, many thanks for that Guppy, it's very much appreciated.

Couple of follow-up questions if I may - first, what sources are you referring to? It's not the first time I've tried to find out about individual 8th AF mission, have never known where to look. Second, do your sources give a time up/down for the mission, and for the time/location of the 262 encounter?

The background to the whole query is that a USAAF recce Mosquito was shot down that day, only about 60km from Politz, and the pilot, who survived, apparently told his family he'd been attacked by a "yellow-bellied P-51."

I've never been able to find any info for a Luftwaffe claim that would match, though data from 1945 can be confusing. There were a number of jets which had been transferred up to Luebeck a few days previously (10./NJG 11), but there's no reports or logbook entries to indicate they were scrambled on the day.

Anyway, many thanks again for the info.

 :salute and  :cheers:
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 06:55:01 AM »
Scherf, by 'yellow bellied' you don't mean the colour of the a/c, right?


Offline Scherf

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2014, 08:35:45 AM »
I really don't know what was meant - apparently that's what the pilot told his family later on. But yes, the colour appears to match the 358th. Long way from being conclusive though.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2014, 09:15:40 AM »
The 355th FG colour was white. http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/355thfg.php

The 361st FG colour was yellow.

Offline Scherf

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2014, 07:33:20 PM »
The 358th FS appears to have had yellow trim, based on the photos here:

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery.php?Group=355

Again, far from conclusive.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2014, 09:38:44 PM »
I really don't know what was meant - apparently that's what the pilot told his family later on. But yes, the colour appears to match the 358th. Long way from being conclusive though.

"Yellow bellied' would mean by a cowardly pilot.  I don't think it references any color on the plane.  I didn't note any times mentioned or claims.  I first found mentioned of the armed recce in Roger Freeman's "Mighty Eighth War Diary" which gives the day to day numbers on missions including claims and losses.

I then went to Bill Marshall's book on the 355th "Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons".  Bill Marshall posts here on occasion as "drgondog" or something similar.  Might PM him to see if he has more details.  I know his redone history of the 355th was recently published.  I don't have it yet however.    His Dad was a 355th FG Ace, probably most famous for being part of the first of the two men in a Mustang cockpit rescues when another 355th FG pilot landed and picked him up after flak forced him to  belly in.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Scherf

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2014, 11:20:29 PM »
Hi Guppy,

Many thanks again. I know of drgndog, will seek him out in one of his internet haunts.

I'm aware of the meaning of yellow-bellied, and the whole story is at least fourth hand, nav to pilot, to pilot's family/friends, to Norman Malayney, to the wider world. Malayney has done a massive amount of research on the 25th BG Mosquitos.

For the record, here's what he posted elsewhere:

"On the 21st, Lt. Jerry M. Roberts and Ralph E. Fisher (NS509) left Watton on a WR to Germany. They received a prior briefing to cover the Danish peninsula and northern Germany. The flight droned on performing weather observation duties, when suddenly and without warning, fiery red tracers encircled the Mosquito.

"Mustang" shouted Fisher, by which time Roberts had already cranked the control wheel, placing the Mossy in a left diving turn.

"Yellow-belly Mustang", Fisher again screamed to the pilot.

Roberts glance back attempting to locate the Mustang's position. As he tightened the turn, red tracers moved across from his left side, striking the port wing and engine. He then felt penetrating rounds hammer against the armor plate behind his seat as the Mustang's deflection shot bore home. Both left engine and wing burst into flames almost simultaneously as fire and smoke obscured the canopy. He flung the aircraft in the opposite direction for better visibility then feathered the port engine and shouted for Fisher to bailout.

Ralph sat slumped at the navigator's position. Roberts reached over and pulled his limp body to an erect position. Apparently the rounds struck the armor plate behind Roberts at an angle and fragments richocheted off. They tore loose Fisher's oxygen mask revealing a blood drenched face. He failed to respond to verbal or physical stimulation.

Upon releasing the control column, the Mosquito proceeded into a lazy left-hand spin resulting in flames and smoke again washing over the cockpit canopy making escape through the top hatch hazardous. But Fisher's body blocked clear access to the bottom hatch. Again Roberts pulled Fisher back but this time observed blood spurt from a neck wound--he was still alive but unconscious. Roberts quickly pulled up a scarf around Ralph's neck and covered the wound to prevent further blood loss. He then tore the plotting board from Fisher's lap. The Mosquito continued losing altitude as the swirling ground appeared ever nearer.

The spin aided movement towards the floor. Somehow Roberts retrieved a chest pack and snapped it on Fisher's harness, then managed to remove the inner floor cover and stomped on the bottom door until it flew off. It proved an arduous task struggling to lower Fisher's legs out the open hatch, then his hips, but the chest pack impeded further movement. Quickly Roberts yanked the pack's D-ring, placed his foot on Ralph's shoulder and forcefully shoved him through the hatchway. Positioning himself in the opening, Roberts struggled to squeeze through and safely exited the aircraft.

Almost instantly there was a jolting shock as the canopy deployed followed almost immediately by a second jarring encounter when the initial parachute swing slammed him to the ground. Then everything dimmed to a black-out. After slowly regaining consciousness, he was unable to move. With great difficulty he slowly managed to release the parachute harness, then lay there short of breath in physical agony.

The descent and crash was witness by local farmers who provided a make-shift litter and carried Roberts to a group of houses for help. They found Fisher still alive, but he soon died before receiving proper medical attention.

A Luftwaffe report states German fighters shot down the Mosquito at 1545 hours over Emkendorf, 10 km south of Lutjenburg, Germany. Roberts became a POW at 1600 hours and later transferred to Dulag-Luft, Oberursel near Frankfurt. He later returned to Watton after Germany surendered."




"Jerry Roberts died in 1994. His family gave me reference to one of his associates who provided me with the information he could recall from one of his discussions with Roberts. He said that Roberts was attacked by a "yellow-belly P-51".

According to the above information, I may have received incorrect information. It is quite possible the friend was mistaken in recalling the exact identity of the attacking aircraft. Since many 25th BG Mossies were attacked by Mustangs, I did not think his recollection on the identity of the attacking aircraft to be unusual or incorrect."



The reason I'm after some idea of the time of day is that if the Mustangs were underway in the morning, they will most likely have had nothing to do with the Mosquito's loss. As I say, neither I nor any of the German researchers I've been in touch with have any information about which German fighters it might have been - at this point Mustangs seem currently seem more likely.

Anyway, many thanks also for the literature references. I'm trying to help a German researcher sort out various things, will pass those references along to him.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2014, 11:48:41 PM »
Just a goofy thought.  Didn't captured Allied aircraft flown by the Luftwaffe have thier undersides painted yellow?  "Yellow Belly" Mustang gives a different take than "Yellow bellied".

I have no idea if any of the captured 51s were ever flown in any way beyond testing and orientation, but the yellow belly comment makes one wonder :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2014, 12:23:44 AM »
Went back and checked the Marshall book.  He does state times.  1325 arrival over Politz.  1430 bounced by a pair of 262s near Steinhuder Lake.  No claims of E/A shot down.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Question for 8th AF P-51 Experten
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 01:21:19 AM »
Thanks again Guppy. So far as I can tell, British time and German time were the same at this point in the war, GMT+1. I have a note (though I've not double-checked it yet) that the Mosquito took off at 14:42, all of which rather takes the 358th out of the picture.

Also, if they were bounced over the Steinhuder Lake, it puts them quite a long way from the jets of 10./NJG 11 as well.

Ah well, perhaps I just need another hobby.

Anyway, many thanks again for taking the time, it's much appreciated.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB