The Loaded Roll: My favorite defense trick in the book

[Zerstorer]

Your best move is all you've got.

That may be overstating things a bit.  I may not always agree with Violator, but he's a good stick.

Just sayin', sir.   

[Someguy63]

Nice Violator.

[FLS]

Some players want to know the tricks and some players want to understand how to use energy, turn rate, and geometry to win fights. Sometimes they end up doing the same thing but they talk about it differently.   

[DmonSlyr]

This statement proves that you don't know the fundamentals nor do you seem interested in them.  One thing for sure, you can't guarantee or promise anything.  Your best move is all you've got.

Lol. With all do respect, I don't think you understand what I was trying to accomplish with this video,  nor do you have an idea about why I pefrormed this maneuver in the first place.  If you don't think I know "fundamentals" in AH flight model you got another thing coming.

Please enlighten me on how you would perform a defensive tactic on plane with more speed, E, and  alt, especially when you don't have a ton of speed and are low to begin with.

I rarely see people even attempt this maneuver, much less any real defense technique that is valuable to their survival while attempting to get a kill from it aswell. That is why I posted this.

Tbh I don't think you'd stand a chance vs me with all the "fundamentals" I know in AH.

[Kingpin]

Lol. With all do respect, I don't think you understand what I was trying to accomplish with this video,  nor do you have an idea about why I pefrormed this maneuver in the first place.  If you don't think I know "fundamentals" in AH flight model you got another thing coming.

Please enlighten me on how you would perform a defensive tactic on plane with more speed, E, and  alt, especially when you don't have a ton of speed and are low to begin with.

I rarely see people even attempt this maneuver, much less any real defense technique that is valuable to their survival while attempting to get a kill from it aswell. That is why I posted this.

Tbh I don't think you'd stand a chance vs me with all the "fundamentals" I know in AH.

Hey gents, can I respectfully request we try to keep this civil and leave the ego out of it?!  The Training Forum is not the place for "I am better than you" arguments, and the ACM topics in discussion are too valuable to get the thread locked.

Let me play peacemaker here for a second and point out that BOTH Violator and Puma have valid points:

First, Violator, I don't think Puma is trying to discredit your film.  I think he agrees with me that it is a good example of a form of the BRD.  All I believe Puma is trying to do is make a counterpoint to the idea that "this is the best move" -- because even the BRD will not work all the time.  He is correct in stating that.  You are correct in saying it is a valid move "for that situation" because it was.  The two points aren't mutually exclusive.

Your film is a great example of a well executed BRD reversal, but it's important for people to know that the move can be countered and won't always yield the same result (a reversal and kill shot).  Personally, I believe there are many pilots (those who tend to fight with energy advantage) who do know how to counter it.  I think you know this, Violator, so I am not directing that comment at you.  I (and probably Puma as well) are simply saying these things so that OTHERS who don't know as much about ACM who read this thread see that point as well.

You said you "rarely see people even attempt this maneuver" -- which I believe is true. I have observed you fighting and I think there is a reason you may not see it used a lot.  You fight very aggressively and tend to convert your E for angles to go for the kill -- even in a multi-con situation.  Nothing wrong with that, it's just one fun way to fly.  You know you are good at fighting defensively, so you don't worry about losing your E, getting slower and putting yourself at a disadvantage.  Again, this is no criticism, just an observation as someone who has fought you in the MA.

Perhaps one reason you may not see your move as often as I do (or maybe Puma does) might be a function of angles fighting vs. E fighting.  I tend to fly the Pony, Corsair and (to a lesser extent) Dora -- all planes where you generally want to keep fast in a mulit-con combat zone and be careful about using up your E.  When I do fly these (and because I do) I tend to see others using the BRD quite a bit. I will say that when I do see someone use that move, it alerts me to the fact that I am fighting against someone who knows what they are doing.

That said, I also see plenty of players who DON'T use the BRD effectively, and could probably benefit from seeing your film.  That's why I feel this is an important discussion.

But, it's important they understand what they are seeing and know when/why it may not work.  That's why I chimed in (and probably Puma too -- though I'm carefully trying not to put words in his mouth), not to criticize your film, but rather to expand the discussion of it.

Hope that clears the air a little, gents.

<S>
Ryno

[ink]

every BFM...ACM...has a counter move that will put you in better position...

there is no one perfect maneuver...

the real fighters are the ones that deploy the correct BFM and ACM at the correct time.

and most importantly they land their hits and make the kills.

IMO

skill set to be practiced to become an AH stick worthy of fighting.

Aim>SA>BFM<ACM

[DmonSlyr]

Hey gents, can I respectfully request we try to keep this civil and leave the ego out of it?!  The Training Forum is not the place for "I am better than you" arguments, and the ACM topics in discussion are too valuable to get the thread locked.

Let me play peacemaker here for a second and point out that BOTH Violator and Puma have valid points:

First, Violator, I don't think Puma is trying to discredit your film.  I think he agrees with me that it is a good example of a form of the BRD.  All I believe Puma is trying to do is make a counterpoint to the idea that "this is the best move" -- because even the BRD will not work all the time.  He is correct in stating that.  You are correct in saying it is a valid move "for that situation" because it was.  The two points aren't mutually exclusive.

Your film is a great example of a well executed BRD reversal, but it's important for people to know that the move can be countered and won't always yield the same result (a reversal and kill shot).  Personally, I believe there are many pilots (those who tend to fight with energy advantage) who do know how to counter it.  I think you know this, Violator, so I am not directing that comment at you.  I (and probably Puma as well) are simply saying these things so that OTHERS who don't know as much about ACM who read this thread see that point as well.

You said you "rarely see people even attempt this maneuver" -- which I believe is true. I have observed you fighting and I think there is a reason you may not see it used a lot.  You fight very aggressively and tend to convert your E for angles to go for the kill -- even in a multi-con situation.  Nothing wrong with that, it's just one fun way to fly.  You know you are good at fighting defensively, so you don't worry about losing your E, getting slower and putting yourself at a disadvantage.  Again, this is no criticism, just an observation as someone who has fought you in the MA.

Perhaps one reason you may not see your move as often as I do (or maybe Puma does) might be a function of angles fighting vs. E fighting.  I tend to fly the Pony, Corsair and (to a lesser extent) Dora -- all planes where you generally want to keep fast in a mulit-con combat zone and be careful about using up your E.  When I do fly these (and because I do) I tend to see others using the BRD quite a bit. I will say that when I do see someone use that move, it alerts me to the fact that I am fighting against someone who knows what they are doing.

That said, I also see plenty of players who DON'T use the BRD effectively, and could probably benefit from seeing your film.  That's why I feel this is an important discussion.

But, it's important they understand what they are seeing and know when/why it may not work.  That's why I chimed in (and probably Puma too -- though I'm carefully trying not to put words in his mouth), not to criticize your film, but rather to expand the discussion of it.

Hope that clears the air a little, gents.

<S>
Ryno

That's true ryno I am very aggressive while flying. I'm not the most patient fighter in the MA hehe but I do get a lot of kills this way. I have become pretty good in defensive flying as BnZ is boring to me and I tend to fly slower planes therefore I get jumped a lot.

I wanted to show players that there is another method besides running or extending away or not knowing what to do and just flat spinning hoping they miss. This is a way to to avoid the attack possibly, get a shot, and still have enough E just in case you can't get a shot and they roll back around.

This is a move that takes timing, reading E, and knowing your plane's stall and E characteristics. Like I said before, this move is not as easy as it looks in the film and doing it correctly takes a lot of practise. Especially with people who are going slower, who avoid it the first or second time, or are good shots. I even sometimes let people think they are gonna get a shot on me, they typically miss, and this sets me up for a good roll around on them.

I am going to attempt to post another film today of a full on fight with me in a 109g14 vs a spit8 that has alt, E, and starts on my 6 to begin the fight. I fight the whole entire fight in defensive mode. Maybe this will be a better video of defensive flying techniques.

 

[DmonSlyr]

I'm not going to be able to post it. I don't have the right software to use and the only  lowest quality Id want to go only plays 20 seconds of the it.
Oh well

[JimmyD3]

THanks for posting Violator, more food for the "noodle" to ponder. I love these kind of discussions, it helps those of us still in the lower end of the learning curve to see ways to improve our skills and land more of our kills. As for me, just surviving the attack is an accomplishment.

[DmonSlyr]

THanks for posting Violator, more food for the "noodle" to ponder. I love these kind of discussions, it helps those of us still in the lower end of the learning curve to see ways to improve our skills and land more of our kills. As for me, just surviving the attack is an accomplishment.

You're welcome jimmyD.
This move gets me out of a lot of trouble and if performed correctly is certain to get you in a neutral position with the attacker if they give up there E states. The hardest part is timing and stall control but hopefully by watching this video you can get a good idea of what the maneuver looks like when it is performed inside the cockpit.

[homersipes]

If both pilots recognized what was going on this could turn into a scissors fight correct?  I have done this quite a bit and seems 99% of the times turns into a rolling scissors fight, which I LOVE 

[DmonSlyr]

If both pilots recognized what was going on this could turn into a scissors fight correct?  I have done this quite a bit and seems 99% of the times turns into a rolling scissors fight, which I LOVE 

Yes that is the goal. This way you can use their E against them if they aren't sure what to do after an overshoot. If they attempt to roll over after the overshoot, you will be able to roll sharper in the scissors because you are initially slower, which then if performed correcly, puts the fight to your advantage.

[Scca]

I use this move and believe it to be a version of the BRD.  Regardless of what you call it, it does work.  More importantly, it works well.   

Good shooting BTW.. I usually get them in front of me, but the shooting part is my undoing.   

[wpeters]

Yes that is the goal. This way you can use their E against them if they aren't sure what to do after an overshoot. If they attempt to roll over after the overshoot, you will be able to roll sharper in the scissors because you are initially slower, which then if performed correcly, puts the fight to your advantage.

That is correct But remember he move laterally the least wins. That means the plane with the highest E will have the advantage as long as he tries to stay behind your 3-9 line.  Most pilots don't remember that.   IF a slower plane begins a rolling scissors rememeber to travel vertically behind his 3-9 line.

Also use God's G to turn at the top of the scissors.  Also use throttle control coming through the bottom of your loops.

[DmonSlyr]

I use this move and believe it to be a version of the BRD.  Regardless of what you call it, it does work.  More importantly, it works well.   

Good shooting BTW.. I usually get them in front of me, but the shooting part is my undoing.   

Thanks. Yes BRD is the actual name, I actually didn't know the name and had heard the term "loaded roll" somewhere before. But we cleared that up in the discussion.

That is correct But remember he move laterally the least wins. That means the plane with the highest E will have the advantage as long as he tries to stay behind your 3-9 line.  Most pilots don't remember that.   IF a slower plane begins a rolling scissors rememeber to travel vertically behind his 3-9 line.

Also use God's G to turn at the top of the scissors.  Also use throttle control coming through the bottom of your loops.

Unfortunately, you cannot hear the sound, but I cut throttle at the top and use a notch of flaps. I do want to say though, that it is a judgment issue how how high you want to do the roll. If they are going really fast use more of a corkscrew roll, if they are going slow to your speed you really need to get as far past that 3-9 as you can in the vert and then roll over. A lot of times people don't lift up high enough and the move puts you in a easy kill.

You are right about the overshoot. The plane overshooting should pull up into a split S behind the 3-9 and either do another split S to completely rope them or continue the spiral up over them hoping they follow.

The reason why it worked well here is because the dude wasnt going quite fast enough so when he overshot was close enough for me to get a shot. The goal is to get them to slightly have more E in the end so that they over shoot but cannot climb up, back, and away without being in your sights. It is a very timing, judgmental, and patience trick.