Author Topic: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster  (Read 10037 times)

Offline Widewing

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2014, 12:45:40 PM »
It would need a whole new arena. The 'World at war 1946' arena.'

Yet, the F8F-1 was operational in squadron strength by May of 1945.... It is not a post war fighter, like the Tempest II.

The biggest issue I have with the "saw combat" argument is that it favors aircraft that never really attained much if any serial production status. Yet, it excludes aircraft, that due to the war being 12,000 miles distant, didn't get to combat until the logistical base was established half a world away. Let's look at it through the eyes of reality. Grumman was building more F6Fs in a single day, than total Ta 152H types delivered. However, the Ta 152 is considered acceptable because it saw combat (because combat was right over Luftwaffe airfields). Grumman delivered many more F8F-1s in April of '45, than total Ta 152 production. This arbitrary "saw combat" stipulation is a bit off the mark, and I have always thought so. A handful of Ta 152s saw combat... Yet, by July of 1945, 14 Navy squadrons were equipped with the F8F-1, with 8 of those squadrons aboard ships, with four carriers steaming for Japan or headed to Pearl Harbor. Yet, this aircraft is considered as unacceptable, even post war, even though it was in service for 6 months prior to the war ending.

It took much longer to move carrier aircraft into combat. Pilots had to train aboard ship, get qualified. Logistics had to be in place. 10,000 miles of ocean separated these carrier aircraft from the enemy. In Europe, the enemy was on your doorstep. From factory, to squadron, to combat was a very short cycle. Especially for Germany.

Inasmuch as I can't envision any new fighters being introduced to Aces High that would not be sub-types of existing aircraft, or hole plugging aircraft (meaning early or mid war), there's nothing exciting to look forward to. A few new bomber types, such as the A-26 or Beaufighter might be interesting, but there isn't much left there either. The Luftwobbles have the special fuels, but where are the 150 octane fuels for the Allies? What about the F7F-1, F7F-2N and P-51H? All were operational before Japan surrendered? Perk them very high. But, excluding them doesn't build excitement for current or potential players.

Going forward, it's going to take more than improved graphics to bump up interest in Aces High. Game play changes and new aircraft will also be needed to bring back former players, keep current ones and draw new people. Without some exciting change of direction, I see it as SSDD, with prettier graphics.
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Widewing

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Offline Squire

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2014, 01:03:10 PM »
The Japanese were continuing to build and convert a considerable # of aircraft (many obsolete but not all) intended for Kamikaze attacks against an invading fleet against Japan. The USN needed an interceptor with a very fast climb rate and speed at low-med alts. The atomic bomb brought an abrupt end to the war in the Pacific but that does not mean that the IJN and IJAAF had no more planes or attack boats to throw into the fray.

For Korea you didn't need the F8F to bomb and strafe troops...and it's not going into air combat against MiGs. It's stellar air to air abilities as a prop fighter were just not needed by the Navy by 1950.

It's one of those great warplanes that just didn't get its chance but in reality that's all for the best.

Quote
Yet, it excludes aircraft, that due to the war being 12,000 miles distant, didn't get to combat until the logistical base was established half a world away.

I agree to some extent but we all know the inclusion of F8Fs would start the inevitable slide towards "AH 1946" to placate the Xbox crowd.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 01:09:44 PM by Squire »
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2014, 01:35:49 PM »
http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/716-f4u-4-corsair-vs-f8f-2-bearcat/


A good read if anyone is interested In seeing others scwable about airplanes
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Offline Slade

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2014, 02:09:13 PM »
Sure would be a fun plane to fly.  It is all debatable on the technicalities to add it or not.

My vote = yes. +1
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Offline Arlo

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2014, 03:18:25 PM »
Yet, the F8F-1 was operational in squadron strength by May of 1945.... It is not a post war fighter, like the Tempest II.

Yet it did not see action in said war. Had that war gone on through 1946 (or later) then that plane would have seen action
(as would many other aircraft that just missed and some others). Hence the widespread fantasy alter-reality of WWII 1946.
Then it may not even be a perk ride. It may still be  popular one. And HTC could populate the arena with a lot of the 1945
rides as, ironically, perk farming planes. 1946 would be a home better suited to the Temp Mk II, as well. The only problem is,
if the trend we've seen to date holds, the LW arena would then die off.

Having said that, I agree that the F8F was indeed a monster.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 03:20:06 PM by Arlo »

Offline Saxman

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2014, 03:32:38 PM »
The big problem of adding the F8F is that it starts a pretty significant slippery slope. The game is already so late-war monster focused as it is, and adding machines like the F8F, F7F, P-51H and P-63 isn't going to help.

There's a lot of other things HTC can do to improve the arena experiences. Finishing updates of the older models and plugging gaps (especially the glaring early/mid-war holes, workhorses like the Beaufighter, etc.) should be a priority over adding beasts like the Bearcat. And then the game mechanics THEMSELVES should get a looking at.

I don't mean the upcoming graphics engine upgrade, though that update is pretty long overdue.

I mean stuff like modernizing the damage modeling (IE progressive rather than "all or nothing" damage modeling, flaps that CAN actually be shot away entirely rather than just "jammed", interior components like fuel, hydraulics, cooling and oil lines, control wires, etc.). Expand the ordinance system with more types of ordinance (Tiny Tims, parafrags) and a means of enforcing more realistic ordinance loadouts (IE, I'm not aware of Corsairs taking off from carriers with 2x1000lber AND a full load of rockets) IE through limiting the available loads depending on the launch base or adding perks for the extremely heavy loadouts on fighters to give dedicated attackers like the TBM a real purpose.

The strategy system could also stand tweaking, and there's a lot that can be done with the ground and surface war (IE, adding deployable infantry, battleships, expanding the types of ships beyond the late-war US fleet, etc.) Tweak AAA and object hardness in the EW and MW arenas to better reflect those arenas. Fix the way puffy ack is handled (I'd still prefer it actually be FIRED from its source rather than randomly generating around the target, which has been demonstrated to actually work in FAVOR of large aircraft formations).

There's a LOT of things that can be done to the game without resorting to more late-war uber rides.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2014, 03:40:43 PM »

The strategy system could also stand tweaking, and there's a lot that can be done with the ground and surface war (IE, adding deployable infantry, battleships, expanding the types of ships beyond the late-war US fleet, etc.) Tweak AAA and object hardness in the EW and MW arenas to better reflect those arenas. Fix the way puffy ack is handled (I'd still prefer it actually be FIRED from its source rather than randomly generating around the target, which has been demonstrated to actually work in FAVOR of large aircraft formations).

There's a LOT of things that can be done to the game without resorting to more late-war uber rides.

Agreed. If ground and sea units are expanded (and done well) this may draw two other dedicated player niches.

Offline Saxman

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2014, 04:27:00 PM »
For surface fleets, I would add several classes of each ship type, covering the Early, Mid and Late war periods, and include vessels from the four main navies (USN, RN, Kriegsmarine, and IJN). I'd expand the types of fleets as well. IE:

Carrier Battle Group - Surface fleet essentially as it is now (CV, CA and DD escorts) but remove LVTs and PTs, cannot pass within 25 miles of shore.
Light Battle Group - Surface fleet with a CVL and CL in place of the CV and CA.
Bombardment Group - Surface fleet replacing CV with a BB.
Landing Group - Consisting of 1 CVE (limited plane set; TBM, F4F, FM2, A6M, B5N, D3A, etc.) 1 LST (LVTs) and escorts of DEs.

Removing landing craft from the CV and BB groups means those two battle groups will now be a bit more realistically used, especially if you increase their closest approach to shore out to 25 miles (distance chosen since that's how far two bases on land should be) for the CV, and perhaps 15 miles for the BB (should still place it in guns range of shore targets). The landing group will be able to approach close enough to deploy LVTs (with the LST acting as a VH; destroy that and the group can't launch LVTs), but the reduced AAA capability means defenders don't have to deal as much with enemy AAA OVER THEIR OWN BASE (which I know frustrates EVERYONE).

Include a couple different classes as appropriate for each ship type from each country and for each arena. Say, an EWMA American-style CV group would consist of one Yorktown-class carrier, one Brooklyn-class cruiser, and several Clemson-class destroyers (I went with the four-pipers because numbers -- 156 of those were built -- and because the four-pipers would be visually distinctive).

This would have the ADDED bonus of providing more options for scenarios and special events. Imagine a Midway scenario where the Japanese fleet is made up of Hiryu, Soryu, Akagi and [/i]Kaga[/i]-class ships vs. three American Yorktowns (have fun with those starboard-side islands on Hiryu and Akagi, kids). ESPECIALLY if the new decal system HTC added to show the chess pieces could be extended to displaying a deck number based on arena settings, instead (so Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet could all be properly numbered).
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:28:45 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Saxman

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2014, 04:43:45 PM »
As for the ground war, I had this thought just now:

Rather than introducing an FPS game for infantry, have each "Army" act sort of like a CV. Armies deploy from a new base type (Camp), which can also launch GVs. Going to the army takes you to the Command Post. From the CP, the player can either spawn in a GV from the "motorpool," or issue orders to the army itself (move to a position, entrench, or attack a position). Say, an army that's moving or attacking will be shown in groups of fire teams, say with riflemen, mortars, bazookas, etc. An entrenched army would have machine gun nests, entrenched riflemen, mortarmen, etc. I'd also give tankers the ability to "dig in." It takes so many seconds to go into effect, and once dug-in the tank can't move (except, obviously, its turret). A dug-in tank decreases its icon distance, making it harder to spot, maybe even earthen berms around it to protect it from enemy fire. In order to move again, the tank has to first take so many seconds again to take down its camo netting, sandbags, etc.

Armies can capture Fields, Bases and Camps, which would also be defended by AI ground troops (these defending troops would not be player-controlled). The number or availability of AI ground troops would be determined by the condition of troops at the base. IE, knocking out the barracks at a base means the base doesn't have troops available to defend itself (or deploy additional troops if there are already defenders spawned). Progress of the ground war would then be affected by these factors:

1) Directly attacking and/or defending infantry positions via air or ground.
2) Interdiction of supply convoys or destruction of supply depots.
3) Attacking/defending strategic positions (bridges, etc.)

The army would have a given number of troops. If enough troops are destroyed, the army is destroyed. The army is reinforced by supply convoys (which would launch from supply depots) or player-delivered supplies via air-drops, M3s, etc. The players would also be responsible for providing armor support to the ground troops.

Now, I would NOT eliminate the ability to capture bases via C-47s and other troop carriers. HOWEVER, bases behind enemy lines would suffer penalties, such as:

1) Unable to repair itself/doesn't receive AI supply convoys.
2) Random enemy AI troop spawns at the perimeter (you're behind enemy lines, do you REALLY think the enemy isn't going to try to take it back)?

That means that if players capture a base behind the lines, the PLAYERS have to take responsibility for defending it.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:49:47 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Arlo

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2014, 05:03:41 PM »
We may ought to discuss these ideas (rehash them, somewhat) in another thread out of respect for WW's f8F thread.  :)

Offline WWhiskey

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2014, 05:54:24 PM »
I'd love to fly the bearcat in the game but not in the MA as the rules stand now without a big perk price,, it would be great to have tho, much like the RV8 ,  that said,, if it was flying in groups on VJ Day, I'd be for it,, heavily perked
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Offline Widewing

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2014, 06:09:36 PM »
http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/716-f4u-4-corsair-vs-f8f-2-bearcat/


A good read if anyone is interested In seeing others scwable about airplanes

Well, there was enough ignorance and crappy sources in that thread to make granite bleed...
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2014, 06:09:37 PM »
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...


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Offline bozon

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2014, 06:38:23 PM »
...
A few new bomber types, such as the A-26 or Beaufighter might be interesting
...
ahhmm... "Beaufighter"... not a bomber, it is right there in its name.

As much as I love the bearcat and Grumman birds, I do not want to see this one in the MA. Ta152 I agree that its numbers in service are ridiculous and it saw combat so fast mostly because it was being vulched on the productions line. The difference is that the 152 is not that impressive, but the F8F is not what I want to fight in my 1943 birds - 109K, F4U-4, LA7s and wonder Yak3s are plenty to deal with. A 262 with hispanos and the turn radius of an FM2 cannot be perked high enough.
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: F8F-1 Standard Characteristics... A genuine monster
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2014, 06:40:05 PM »
Well, there was enough ignorance and crappy sources in that thread to make granite bleed...

Yes, lots of sorting through crap and fanboy "facts".
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